Is the Native American Struggle = or > than the African American Struggle?

[ohno]

I don't know about "Indian", but I do know a lot of people prefer "American Indian" (over Native American) so I suppose you have to ask the individual to be sure

 

[Grifter]

this is disrespectful to blacks.

native americans dont get harrassed anywhere near as much as blacks do.

They moved onto Reservations and the majority stays away from other races.

 

[GreatestLaker]

I don't know about "Indian", but I do know a lot of people prefer "American Indian" (over Native American) so I suppose you have to ask the individual to be sure

They shouldn't have Indian at all in their name because *gasp* they aren't Indians. They have no connection to India. Calling them Indians is ignorant.

 

[HookersandIceCream]

This thread is still going

I admire yall's perseverance

 

[ohno]

They shouldn't have Indian at all in their name because *gasp* they aren't Indians. They have no connection to India. Calling them Indians is ignorant.

I use "Native American" by default, but if someone tells me they want to be referred to as an American Indian instead of Native American, I'm going to do that...

 

[itsyoung!!]

do you know what genocide means?!








Since i was adopted, i have no idea what % i am.. Does anyone know the minimum % to be adopted by reservations in cali?? I could be 1% or 99% i have no idea

No one can answer me this ??

 

[Still Benefited]

I know what you’ve been arguing, that’s why I said “of course” disease was an overwhelming factor. I’m not talking about the definition of genocide or whatever side argument you have going on – but that’s another thing: the original post refers to “struggle”. It doesn’t say “who suffered/suffers at the hands of white oppressors the most?” so I think you guys are dealing with different interpretations of the question… don’t think you can argue that watching members of your family and community dropping dead inexplicably doesn’t qualify as “struggle” even if it hadn’t been orchestrated by Europeans. You are right that sometimes Euro settlers walked into villages that had essentially become graveyards already due to how fast the disease spread. But again, don’t neglect the cases of outright exploitation and manipulation that resulted in the deaths of many…

As far as population goes, you just revealed that you aren’t even aware of the different sources/methods used for estimating it. How are you going to accept ANY figures if you don’t know anything about archaeology for instance? If you believe for a second that the Americas were “uncharted territory”, well, you’re a good reflection of the shytty history classes we have in US schools. Native Americans had a huge impact on the land/environment and we can SEE this in the archaeological record. You underestimate the societies that existed here and I bet it’s because you’ve not made any attempt to learn about them.

And once again, I'm not making any arguments for whose struggle is/was worse. I'm just tired of people spreading misinformation.

I see your point with the struggle caused by watching family die,I thinkhave been arguing who got the brunt of whitemans brutality overall...numbers play a large part in that....I'm not going to pretend I remember indian populations from school but after the numbers I saw in this thread that looked like horse shyt to me I DID ctually do research on indian population breifly, despite people thinkin I'm ignorant and just made numbers up.

"While it is difficult to determine exactly how many Natives lived in North America before Columbus, [5] estimates range from a low of 2.1 million (Ubelaker 1976) to 7 million people (Russell Thornton) to a high of 18 million (Dobyns 1983)."

Check this out if u get a min,checked other sources too that say the same


Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You mock me for not knowing the methods they use to calculate the population,meanwhile people who use those methods consider them sketchy guess...when u can get estimates that range so largley in number,such wide discrepancys your right I'm not going to ACCEPT ANY figure...if anybodys spreading misinformation its the people who use these "methods"....who don't know how to just say "we don't know" like I did becuz we don't.

And the americas were unchartered by anybody lookin to do a census of the indian population...so we don't know how many were here in total before whites becuz nobody wuz keepin accurate records obviously

 

[///Vega+++]

...

I can't believe we are debating elementary geometry here....

geography nikka

do the natives still have a struggle ? do they still have a culture ? how many speakers their languages still have ?
there's still plenty of African culture in the motherland and demographic explosion. if we judge by the outcome then yeah they've had it worse

 

[GreatestLaker]

geography nikka

do the natives still have a struggle ? do they still have a culture ? how many speakers their languages still have ?
there's still plenty of African culture in the motherland and demographic explosion. if we judge by the outcome then yeah they've had it worse

That nikka said geometry.

 

[MooseMouthMthafuga]

Native Americans are doing fine. They have sovereignty and they pretty much run gaming here in the US. Not only that, but they get free college, too. My good friend roomed with a Native American that was getting $100k a year just for being a member of the tribe. I don't know any Black people getting it that good on some just existing type sh!t.

This is true.My Brother was dating this half Native/ half black chick.


every 6 months, she gets a 7,000 dollar check.I don't know the exact details, but it has something to do with her being Native American.


They still have their culture, to......Their main problem is alcoholism.

Other than that, they run the casinos and have their own land/ laws.

 

[///Vega+++]

peace 2 MeachTheMonster the history buff. lot of knowledge dropped in here.

 

[ohno]

I see your point with the struggle caused by watching family die,I thinkhave been arguing who got the brunt of whitemans brutality overall...numbers play a large part in that....I'm not going to pretend I remember indian populations from school but after the numbers I saw in this thread that looked like horse shyt to me I DID ctually do research on indian population breifly, despite people thinkin I'm ignorant and just made numbers up.

"While it is difficult to determine exactly how many Natives lived in North America before Columbus, [5] estimates range from a low of 2.1 million (Ubelaker 1976) to 7 million people (Russell Thornton) to a high of 18 million (Dobyns 1983)."

Check this out if u get a min,checked other sources too that say the same


Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don’t want to call you “ignorant” or imply it again since you are responding thoughtfully and all now… so sorry for the tone of my first post. BUT checking Wikipedia isn’t always enough. You quoting Dobyns is actually a very funny thing because it doesn’t help your argument. Dobyns himself is one of the more recent proponents of the big numbers you call “horse shyt” – he argued that the population of Native Americans living on both continents before Euro contact was “between 90 and 112 million people” (Mann 2005:104). The numbers you’re citing only account for Native Americans in North America – I already stated in a previous post that I’m referring to ALL Native Americans.

Charles C. Mann, 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (New York, 2005)

You mock me for not knowing the methods they use to calculate the population,meanwhile people who use those methods consider them sketchy guess...when u can get estimates that range so largley in number,such wide discrepancys your right I'm not going to ACCEPT ANY figure...if anybodys spreading misinformation its the people who use these "methods"....who don't know how to just say "we don't know" like I did becuz we don't.

And the americas were unchartered by anybody lookin to do a census of the indian population...so we don't know how many were here in total before whites becuz nobody wuz keepin accurate records obviously

The estimations do have a large range, but as I said before, the consensus today (and the average of those estimates) would still place the entire population at at least double your higher figure. Now, you can claim that the point in your original post was that “we don’t know”, but that’s not really the message you’ve been sending. Saying “some people say 2 million, some say 20” is a really bad way of demonstrating your knowledge of the subject seeing as ~20 million is the higher estimate for North America only. When you’re giving me a Russ face acting like my figures are impossible, that isn’t claiming to “not know” either. You are clearly disinclined to believe the numbers could be higher… and I don’t know why. When I say “accept any figure”, I obviously don’t mean you should take something for granted as fact when there’s plenty of reason for caution. I meant: how can you refer to any sources when you reject/don’t understand the methods those people used to reach their conclusions.

Your argument that if there were that many Native Americans, they’d have been able to ‘beat’ the Europeans is just… idiotic, sorry. It’s not like there was some united front, like Native American tribes versus the Euro invaders… and the vast majority died from diseases over that first century of contact so they couldn't exactly put up a battle… AND larger forces does not necessarily equal victory in war anyway. Bad argument all around.

 

[ohno]

these posts keep getting longer and longer... i have to stop

 

[Iamnoone]

^^^^^^ Don't know where you got that from.....Link?

There were no laws at the time Europeans would have taught them how to ride horses.

I swear some of y'all are so misinformed it's sad. The Amercans education system is a total failure.

stop with this ignorant "Americans so ignorant on history, or our education system failed us" bullshyt. There are over 300 million Americans. How many do you know? I'm American, my friends and family are, and they are EXTREMELY educated. How you do you expect people to take you seriously and respect the knowledge you are trying to spread when you are behaving like the people you are talking about. There are plenty of things wrong with my country, but there are a shyt ton things RIGHT about this country and im proud to be here.

 

[Still Benefited]

I don’t want to call you “ignorant” or imply it again since you are responding thoughtfully and all now… so sorry for the tone of my first post. BUT checking Wikipedia isn’t always enough. You quoting Dobyns is actually a very funny thing because it doesn’t help your argument. Dobyns himself is one of the more recent proponents of the big numbers you call “horse shyt” – he argued that the population of Native Americans living on both continents before Euro contact was “between 90 and 112 million people” (Mann 2005:104). The numbers you’re citing only account for Native Americans in North America – I already stated in a previous post that I’m referring to ALL Native Americans.

Charles C. Mann, 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (New York, 2005)




The estimations do have a large range, but as I said before, the consensus today (and the average of those estimates) would still place the entire population at at least double your higher figure. Now, you can claim that the point in your original post was that “we don’t know”, but that’s not really the message you’ve been sending. Saying “some people say 2 million, some say 20” is a really bad way of demonstrating your knowledge of the subject seeing as ~20 million is the higher estimate for North America only. When you’re giving me a Russ face acting like my figures are impossible, that isn’t claiming to “not know” either. You are clearly disinclined to believe the numbers could be higher… and I don’t know why. When I say “accept any figure”, I obviously don’t mean you should take something for granted as fact when there’s plenty of reason for caution. I meant: how can you refer to any sources when you reject/don’t understand the methods those people used to reach their conclusions.

Your argument that if there were that many Native Americans, they’d have been able to ‘beat’ the Europeans is just… idiotic, sorry. It’s not like there was some united front, like Native American tribes versus the Euro invaders… and the vast majority died from diseases over that first century of contact so they couldn't exactly put up a battle… AND larger forces does not necessarily equal victory in war anyway. Bad argument all around.

Your figures sounded ridiculous becuz I thought we were talking about Indians in North Amerca only just like were talking about African Americans only....if u look back I clearly said "nobody knows how many Indians were HERE before the white man came" then u said "nobody says 2 million or 20 million".....well they do say 2 million and 20 million for HERE which is what I wuz speaking on...and u can't take the average of random numbers and sumhow make it more accurate...and I think I proved my point with the quote its a quote just stating dobyns has the higher figure but also shows 2 other guesstimates with much lower figures,dobyns name is in it as the source of the 18 mil number..

Well just have to disagree numbers vary to much,we agree majority died from disease before whites even had any intent to takeover...makin it as if whites wiped out majority of them on purpose with blnkets or during war is sketchy....from the beggining of first contact indians were dying of disease....which wuz not intended.


Its the equivelant of putting the death of millions of blacks on gays becuz aids started with homos on the dl...it wuznt intentional unlike the intentional brutality put on african americans...but like I said I've been arguing who wuz systematically done worse purposfuly and out of hate and disrespect and that's us.....but agreed with u watching ur people die from disease whether bought intentionally would aslo be suffering....so if u believe the high number I could see how u would think indians HERE suffered more...indianstook more losses life ways early on,african americans were done far worse at the hands of the white man.