I've seen enough: Jokic is a top 6 center of all-time

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Remember this when they tell you Jokic had “way better” handle than Hakeem because he can walk the ball up over half court with no one on him

They?

Literally one poster in here said that. And those basic ass crossovers from Dream don’t prove anything. Jokic is a better ball-handler, but it’s such a patently ridiculous thing to argue about. It reeks of focusing on minutiae so you can sidetrack and cover up all the dumb shyt you said about him. You’re desperately trying to find another argument you can use against him because all your other ones are dead and buried.

You’re saying a whole bunch of nothing in this thread.

You were deadly serious about MPJ being a better player than him, now you’re trying to play it off as a joke as if nobody will notice.

Do you ever look in the mirror and think to yourself, that’s one shameless ass nxgga?

 

[Street Knowledge]

I like when he throws those touchdown pass assists

 

[Bboystyle]

Jokic is better than Shaq and it's not even close. Shaq is probably top 3 most overrated players ever for sure, but not a top 5 center

negged this bootlegged mexican

 

[pez]

that cac could've found another jersey number

but whatever

he aight

On the real though. Is Melo going to go down as the only Hall of Famer without a jersey retired? I don't think he did enough to have it retired in NY. It gotta be for Denver but would they do it? Especially with this dude wearing it?

 

[Budda]

He will be top 3 when its all said and done.

 

[Rekkapryde]

Dream won his first ring with crazy ass Mad Max and rookie Sam Cassell as his next options.

And Moses still over Jokic too. Wont even have this convo until Joker finishes the job of winning a chip first.

 

[Stuntone]

Without 1 FMVP????

 

[Professor Emeritus]

So, let us discuss the elephant in the room...



@Rhakim now that the general public is coming around to acknowledging and appreciating Nikola Jokic's greatness, could you speak about the obvious parallels to a similar, perhaps even greater player that the NBA public routinely ignores:

Arvydas Sabonis?

Oh, I spoke about this years ago. The first big difference is that young Sabonis was athletic as fukk and an elite defender.





On the other hand, even though Sabonis had a solid jump shot, Jokic has certainly surpassed him. Sabonis's shot was much flatter, Jokic has beautiful arc on his shot.

And while Sabonis was an elite passer and previously had a case for the best passing center ever, Jokic has surpassed him there as well. However, we never got to see fully actualized Sabonis as a point center - no coaches in his day knew how to use him that way. So perhaps if Sabonis had been regularly running the offence, he would have leveled up in the passing department the same way Jokic did. I mean damn, I'm looking at these highlights and Sabonis was even better than I remembered, he just didn't have Jokic's regular volume.





Their post games were different but equally effective, both of them were elite at using one hand, using their bulk to create separation from the defender, and coming at the basket from odd angles.

While there were obvious differences, I do think there's pretty damn good comps as far as centers go. But in some ways, I see Jokic as incorporating a lot of Larry Bird in his game too. Sabonis had a lot of point center abilities, but no coach of his age knew how to use him in a point center manner. Jokic is used much more like Larry Bird was, running plays out of the high post while the offense moves around him.

 

[Remote]

Oh, I spoke about this years ago. The first big difference is that young Sabonis was athletic as fukk and an elite defender.





On the other hand, even though Sabonis had a solid jump shot, Jokic has certainly surpassed him. Sabonis's shot was much flatter, Jokic has beautiful arc on his shot.

And while Sabonis was an elite passer and previously had a case for the best passing center ever, Jokic has surpassed him there as well. However, we never got to see fully actualized Sabonis as a point center - no coaches in his day knew how to use him that way. So perhaps if Sabonis had been regularly running the offence, he would have leveled up in the passing department the same way Jokic did. I mean damn, I'm looking at these highlights and Sabonis was even better than I remembered, he just didn't have Jokic's regular volume.





Their post games were different but equally effective, both of them were elite at using one hand, using their bulk to create separation from the defender, and coming at the basket from odd angles.

While there were obvious differences, I do think there's pretty damn good comps as far as centers go. But in some ways, I see Jokic as incorporating a lot of Larry Bird in his game too. Sabonis had a lot of point center abilities, but no coach of his age knew how to use him in a point center manner. Jokic is used much more like Larry Bird was, running plays out of the high post while the offense moves around him.

Robinson was one of the all time great NBA centers and Sabonis made him look like his son in that 1st video.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Robinson was one of the all time great NBA centers and Sabonis made him look like his son in that 1st video.

Yeah, the Robinson vs. Sabonis highlights are some of the most shyt I've ever seen in an international game. Admiral was getting yammed on and having his shyt blocked back into the stands.

It's worth noting, though, that those are only highlights. The matchup was fairly even. In the main game in 1986 (Basketball World Cup championship game when they were both 21), Sabonis had 16 points, 13 boards, and 4 blocks, while Robinson had 20 points, 7 boards, and 4 blocks. USA won by 2 with the Soviets missing a shot at the buzzer to tie (Kenny Smith led all scorers with 23). Sabonis had more of the highlight plays directly against Robinson though.

The other time they played in 1988, Sabonis had ruptured his achilles the previous year, and the Soviets sent him to Portland (who had his draft rights) for surgery. Then they forced him to play in the '88 Olympics even though he was still limping. The Portland doctors heavily protested the decision and said he could permanently ruin his legs, but the Soviets had already been running Sabonis into the ground the last 3 years forcing him to play every single international event possible. A hobbled Sabonis went 6-12 to put up 13 and 13 with a block to help lead the Soviets to their famous 82-76 win over Team USA. D-Rob also shot 6-12 to put up 19 and 12 with 2 blocks, but it wasn't enough as the Soviets had two elite perimeter scorers who really took Dan Majerle, Mitch Richmond, and Bimbo Coles apart.

That was the last game the USA played without NBA players.

 

[murksiderock]

Bill Russell is better than all of these guys

I'd put only Kareem ahead of Russell. He certainly has a case over Kareem...

I tend to view Russell as the pre-Duncan; if Russell was 40 years younger and played in the NBA 40 years later than he actually did, he'd have had Duncan's career. I dont think that's enough for a claim as greatest player ever but Top 5 is an easy argument and Duncan was essentially everything Russell was said to be, in modern form. Duncan was Evolutionary Russell...

The rings argument seems to only apply to wings (from Jordan stans).

Russell is considered an all-time great but no one considers him #1 at C or #1 overall despite all those 'ships and Civil Rights work.

It's basically any non-big man that gets buckets and plays decent D...."it's them rangz Erneh." Jordan/media/fans changed the way we evaluate 2s and 3s, so if they lack psychopathic tendencies and multiple rings, they're trash.

The 6'11"+ crew seems to be evaluated more on overall skill. Using football as an analogy, Emmitt Smith got the stats, accolades and rings...Basically MJ of running backs, yet no one ever gives him the MJ hall pass because we judge them and athletes in all the big sports differently except for NBA wings.

Never thought of it this way but you're right, bigs are not held as strictly to the rings or bust mentality...

Wilt is still considered Top 5 by most people to this day, half a century after he retired, a quarter century after he died. And he "only" has two rings...

The rings shyt is more of a Jordan Propaganda thing. Winning always mattered, great players were always saluted for winning championships, but there was no edict that a great player needed a certain number of rings to validate his greatness. Mike Stans took over NBA Media and made the number "6" this hallowed benchmark that never existed before Mike---->and was only attainable because of the era Mike blew up in...

We'll never see another All-Timer win 6 championships again, and it's not because of how special Mike was, it's that the climate of pro basketball no longer allows for a single team and single player to unilaterally control the sport. If that was still possible Steph would be 6-0 instead of 4-2, Duncan would have been 6-0 instead of 5-1, Shaq would have been 6-0 instead of 4-2, and all of them would have won all 6 as their team's best player...

We'll see role players hit 6 rings again. But we're 25 years and counting since Mike and Scottie won #6, with a bunch of players better than Scottie since then, and LeBron arguable better than Mike---->yet no one has been able to get more than 5. On the off chance we see an All-Timer win 6 again, he certainly won't win all 6 as The Guy; (had Duncan or Shaq gone 6-0 they certainly wouldn't have had them all as #1s and if Steph gets to 6 they won't all be as #1s either)...

6 championships is never happening again, for the same reason 11 championships is never happening again. Both Russell and Jordan were the right guys at the right time, The League was so different that it allowed a guy like them to hoard titles in a short period of time. That shyt is never happening again, takes nothing away from what Mike and Russell accomplished---->but it also takes nothing away from younger GOATs...

So the 6 rings Jordan Propaganda shyt has always been bullshyt. Thankfully some of us never bought the hype...

Add Unseld as well, I wouldn't put him over David Robinson either even if he wins this year,
I'd place him below Robinson but over the likes of Ewing

Wes Unseld is one of the most overrated Hall Of Famers ever...

 

[David_TheMan]

Wes Unseld is one of the most overrated Hall Of Famers ever...

I'd say he is criminally underrated

 

[EzekelRAGE]

 

[murksiderock]

I'd say he is criminally underrated

Nah hell nah, he wasn't even the best player on most of his teams. He and Reed, when they are brought up in conversation they are overrated like a muhfukka...

 

[thenatural]

We need to put some more respect on Moses Malone's name.