Jay-Z and Kanye West: Are they out of ideas of their own?

[theworldismine13]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Last week, producer Hudson Mohawke — a centerpiece of Kanye West's extended crew and a producer on "Yeezus" — said something that almost no other producer peer was willing to. He thought the new Jay-Z album didn't sound all that exciting.

"This record could've came out 10 yrs ago n no one wouldve batted an eye lid," he wrote on Twitter. In a followup reply to the producer Mike Dean, he added: "Not negativity just honest opinion I think it's lazy, just my own opinion. Not hating."

Plenty of fans chimed to support Mohawke, with the droll Flying Lotus mock-chiding him that "hey hey. Ur famous now. U not allowed to b honest no more." Dean, for his measure, ominously warned Mohawke that he was screwing up his chances to make beats for “Watch the Throne 2.”

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Jay's recent collaborations in the performance-art world (like playing his Jeff Koons and George Condo-riffing single "Picasso Baby" for six hours at New York's Pace Gallery) imply he's not lacking for high-art fans. But it's interesting that Mohawke — now one of mainstream rap's edgiest and in-demand producers — would feel comfortable calling the new album from hip-hop's corporate titan "lazy" and wanting "beats in general (that) dont sound like 2003."

Is it because these young producers know that the older guard needs the credibility of other, more challenging artists more than ever?

In a recent bomb-chucking piece on Grantland, Sean Fennessey suggests that Jay-Z and Kanye West have both essentially become vampires of other, vital underground sounds and aesthetics. This isn't a new thing in pop music — go ask Carole Kaye who really played the bass lines on "Pet Sounds," or the Funk Brothers about who forged the Motown sound.

But as the Internet underground churns out an astonishing amount of interesting, evolving hip-hop, kingpins like West and Jay are left in a tough predicament. They know they live on a musical and capitalist Mt. Olympus full of fine paintings, wine and women and are happy to tell you about it.

But it's also kind of telling that the most notable conversation points about each of their new records were a Samsung affiliation and the fact that Kanye admitted he barely even tried at all in writing about half the album.
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If that's what it means to be a god, being a god sounds kind of boring and unrewarding.

Maybe that's why each of them have taken their generally acknowledged "coolest guys on the planet" reputations and latched onto others who are doing arguably more interesting actual work.

It's a smart move. When Jay-Z raps "Picasso Baby" to Marina Abramovic and the art critic Jerry Saltz for six hours, it's hard not to feel smitten and bit jealous.

But then one remembers Kanye already tried a similar concept at the release of "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy," where he hosted an album playback amid a Vanessa Beecroft performance piece with dozens of nude models.

And then you remember a few years ago when Jay put out an “Occupy”-themed T-shirt for profit in the thick of the street protests. And then you pull up the “Watch the Throne” video for “No Church in the Wild” that evokes Arab Spring revolutions, on an album that’s fundamentally about having bankrolls and lifestyles befitting a cynical Middle East oil titan.

And then you go listen to "Yeezus," which after a few weeks still sounds unimpeachably progressive, with an impeccable roster of noise-rap and electronica producers. But then notice just how far behind Kanye's knuckleheaded lyrics about sweet-and-sour sauce sex are, by comparison, to the record’s searing sonics. Note how absurd a pairing of "Strange Fruit" and his complaints about being persecuted by money-hungry women is in hindsight.

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Almost everything that's genuinely "cool" about these new albums comes from a reflection of someone else's vision. Rap is built on smart curation and collaboration, and having a deft ear for a novel sample or lyrical allusion is an artist's stock and trade.

But like a lot of the contemporary art they collect and name-drop on record, these albums get much of their worth from their associations — with money, with reputation, with taste, with youth and their experiments — rather than what original things they actually have to say.

Much of the conversation about the production on Jay-Z’s “Magna Carta” is about how the 16-year-old Canadian producer Wondagurl earned a credit on it, and thus probably changing her life forever with the blessing of rap’s titans.

But maybe it’s the reverse. I’d bet Jay and Kanye know, deep in their true artists’ hearts, that all the Samsung money on Earth can really buy you is proximity to other people’s good ideas. And the young blood they’re tapping to get there might finally be ready to call them out on it.

 

[Richard Wright]

The albums werent very good. But the beatles , velvet underground, etc. all hung it up after a decade or so for a reason. Jay Z retired after the Black Album. Hes in a 'tunechi' type phase after that album.

 

[LastEmperor2k2]

They simply lead pretty boring lives, as great it is for comfort, being insanely rich doesn't do a lot for your creative side.

 

[88m3]

op is just begging to get banned

 

[Pool_Shark]

This would of done better in the booth

I think at this point, Jay and Kanye just kind of help bring things to the mainstream. They make certain sounds and genres acceptable to hip-hop, they'll get that pass a lot of times. When that Yeezus dropped I saw multiple people talking about how they didn't like it on the first run but trusted Kanye and kept giving the album a shot. I'll admit on the first listen it didn't sound that good cause I was expecting a Kanye West MBDTF type of album but got something totally different. Kept listening cause I knew there was probably more to it than just a one time listen.

If a new rapper, with the internet hype, classic mixtapes, and a built fanbase, did something totally different on his debut everyone would pan it and never even give it a chance. Kanye and Jay can take those types of risk cause they have a discography that speaks for itself. You know they're good so you'll give them the benefit of the doubt and at least listen a few times before passing judgement.

 

[ProfessionallyTrill]

Oshunrinde has said in interviews that Timbaland inspired her and that her foray into production is essentially an effort to impress her heroes and build a career for herself. Still, as heartrending as her story is, I wouldn't be surprised if we never heard from Wondagurl again. Not because she's untalented or just got lucky or anything more nefarious than that. It's just that Jay-Z has done this before. What happened to the Buchanans, the team behind "What More Can I Say"? Or Jimi Kendrix? Or Charlemagne? Not even legends are immune to his cold shoulder. Superfans have long begged Jay to reunite with DJ Premier, the man behind "D'evils" and "Bring It On"; sessions have occurred over the years, but no new material has been released. I still wonder about Aqua, a credited coproducer of "My 1st Song," my favorite Jay-Z song ever.

Very good points. Can we move this to the Booth? I wanna see what they have to say about all of this talent that Jay & Ye use and then dispose of.

 

[theworldismine13]

op is just begging to get banned

O rly?

 

[Yayo Toure]

Jay-Z is the biggest vampire in hip hop. He'll use you get get hot then forget about you.

Watch him drop his next album with Apple and throw Samsung in the bushes.

 

[TELL ME YA CHEESIN FAM?]

Jay z doesnt give a fukk...u gotta respect that.
With all the rich,educated and civilized people he hangs and do business with i cringe whenever i hear his lyrics.

Dude takes it back to Marcy errtime

 

[Propaganda]

This would of done better in the booth

I think at this point, Jay and Kanye just kind of help bring things to the mainstream. They make certain sounds and genres acceptable to hip-hop, they'll get that pass a lot of times. When that Yeezus dropped I saw multiple people talking about how they didn't like it on the first run but trusted Kanye and kept giving the album a shot. I'll admit on the first listen it didn't sound that good cause I was expecting a Kanye West MBDTF type of album but got something totally different. Kept listening cause I knew there was probably more to it than just a one time listen.

If a new rapper, with the internet hype, classic mixtapes, and a built fanbase, did something totally different on his debut everyone would pan it and never even give it a chance. Kanye and Jay can take those types of risk cause they have a discography that speaks for itself. You know they're good so you'll give them the benefit of the doubt and at least listen a few times before passing judgement.

this is absolutely true and definitely not specific to jay-z or kanye or hip-hop in general. this occurs with many artists across many genres - probably all of them. it's much more rare to see a new/underground/indie artist breakthrough with a "new, fresh sound" than it is to see much more established artists be influenced by that very same aesthetic and bring it to the forefront...and sometimes even be credited for creating it.

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

thought about this the first time I heard MCHG when Hov was bragging about his flow on Tom Ford... while using MIA's flow

 

[Mr Uncle Leroy]

the music they make really going over folks head

 

[MewTwo]

the music they make really going over folks head

Nah not really.

 

[NZA]

they are both trash now, as far as im concerned. when they had goals in life, they said more interesting things, and their worst tendencies werent so glaring. now, if they get bored and want to put on some kind of militant or rebellious persona but continue rapping about materialism or some other nonsense it just seems too ridiculous for me. then i have to wonder, are they so stupid that they cant see how ridiculous this all is, or do they think their fanbase is stupid so nothing matters? i guess it's a little of both, either way, count me out.

 

[The Real]

they are both trash now, as far as im concerned. when they had goals in life, they said more interesting things, and their worst tendencies werent so glaring. now, if they get bored and want to put on some kind of militant or rebellious persona but continue rapping about materialism or some other nonsense it just seems too ridiculous for me. then i have to wonder, are they so stupid that they cant see how ridiculous this all is, or do they think their fanbase is stupid so nothing matters? i guess it's a little of both, either way, count me out.