Jay-Z: How can the "GOAT" Always come in "2nd??" - The ULTIMATE Devils Advocate Thread

really

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**Warning, long post, but MUST READ** #factsOnly


Many hail Jay-Z as the greatest rapper ever... Mostly due to consistency...


But it can be argued, that legends, of ANY KIND, all have 1 thing in common: They absolutely GALVANIZED, CONSUMED, AND DOMINATED their Sport / Art form at ONE POINT IN TIME... Where they were UNDENIABLY, UNDISPUTABLY the big dawg on the block, the shyt... the, "HOLY GRAIL", for lack of a better term....


1991 - 1998... NOBODY outshined Jordan... Nobody.
I wasn't old enough, but of course Babe Ruth had his years
Magic Johnson had his years where not even BIRD outshined him or outclassed him
Floyd Mayweather had his years... 2nd to NOBODY... Not even Pacquiao
Mike Tyson had his years...
Ali had his years.. 2nd to none
Michael Jackson had his years... 2nd to Prince? Not in a million years....
Stone Cold / Hulk Hogan may be 2 most popular wrestlers EVER.. But The Rock had his years where they were 2nd (legend)
Bob Barker 2nd to Pat Say Jack?
Coke 2nd to Pepsi?
Mario 2nd to Sonic?
Lebron 2nd to Durant?


I can go on and on forever... No matter what the platform... The TRUE LEGENDS... The TRUE GOATS... All had their time where they were 2nd to NOBODY.... (look up Kevin Durant interviews where he says "I'm tired of finishing 2nd to Lebron")...


So, this begs the Question: Regardless of his consistency and longevity, how can Jay be the GOD Emcee if he always finishes 2nd??? Over and over..... 2nd, 2nd 2nd... (or worse)...

One can make the argument, that Jay just has his consistent, loyal group of stans / fans that will buy his albums till he's 80... regardless of quality.


BUT, he never actually GALVANIZED the culture... Like Snoop in 1993... Biggie in 1994 / 1997... Pac in 1996.. Puffy in 1997... DMX in 1998... Eminem in 2000.. 50 Cent in 2003... Lil Wayne in 2008...

I can go on....


When THESE nikkaS mashed on the scene... They were 2nd to NOBODY.... It wasn't even DEBATABLE...

There was an aura in your life, whether you were a fan or not, that something BIG is going down... The feeling when Get Rich or Die trying dropped... it felt like a holiday for a month... The air smelt different... shyt just felt different when this nikka dropped that album... That's the definition of GALVANIZING the culture...


Disagree? Well, Jay said it himself: Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont?...


1996 - All Eyez on Me (9x Plat), The Score (6mil), It Was Written (4mil) (reasonable what?)
1997 - Life after Death, No Way Out, Wu-Tang Forever, Harlem World
1998 - Dark and Hell is Hot, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, 400 Degreez (can make the Argument Vol 2 >> 400 Degreez, but its no doubt 1998 was X's / Lauryn's year.. Sales + classics wise)
1999 - Chronic 2001, And then there was X..., Slim Shady LP
2000 - Marshall Mathers LP, Country Grammer
2001* - Stillmatic, *Bluprint, Word of Mouth, Pain is Love
2002 - Nellyville, The Eminem Show
2003 - Get Rich or Die Trying, SpeakerBoxx / Love Below
2004 - The College Drop out, Encore
2005 - Late Registration, The Massacre, The Documentary
2006* - Food and Liqour, *Kingdom Come, Doctors Advocate, Hip Hop is Dead
2007 - Graduation, Curtis, T.I. vs TIP
2008 - Carter 3, Paper Trail
2009 - Relapse, Only built 4 Cuban lynx 2
2010 - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, Recovery, Thank me Later
2011 - Carter 4, Take Care
2012 - Good Kid Madd City
2013 - *Soon to be Marshall Mathers LP 2 or Nothing was the same (sales wise)



The 2 years you can ARGUE for Jay?

2001, 2006:

2001: the Blueprint was outsold by Word of Mouth / Pain is love.. Plus it's the year he got "Ethered", and later ADMITTED he lost the BIGGEST RAP BATTLE IN HISTORY, "2nd place" (Stillmatic also went double platinum like the Blueprint to boot.. Advantage Nas)..


2006: Kingdom come was the best selling rap album that year... But that was a HISTORICALLY weak year for albums.. Many would say Kingdom come is one of (if not) Jays worst albums and that Doctors advocate was a close classic that year, and Food and Liqour was an actual classic. Complex calls kingdom come Jays worst solo album: http://www.complex.com/music/2013/07/ranking-jay-zs-albums-from-worst-to-best/kingdom-come

Nas "Hip Hop is Dead" was also a huge deal in 2006... (Kingdom Come being his worst album but one of his best selling can be attributed to a weak climate and Jay-Z doing Budwiser / HP commercials that year to promote it.)



But, it goes beyond albums, lets look at singles:

Nelly - 4 #1 hits (many with him singing hook)
50 Cent - 3 #1 hits (2 with him singing hook)
Luda - 2 # 1 hits (1 with him singing hook, the other he's half of the hook)
Eminem - 4 #1 hits (3 with him singing hook)
Kanye - 2 #1 hits (2 with him singing hook)
Lil Wayne - only 1 #1 hit (with him on hook, Lolli Pop)... But it don't matter, since he surpassed Elvis Presley with the most hits on the Bill board hot 100 chart in history.

Jay-Z - 1 #1 hit in 20 years (Empire state of mind with Alicia on the hook... His other biggest song ever was Hard Knock Life... So his 2 biggest songs of his career had bytches carrying the song.. Shout out to Annie)

*Biggie / 2pac: Both had 2 #1 singles each... (In all 4 songs, someone else did the hook..[hypnotize, mo money mo problems, how do u want it, california love).. But we know they died at 24, Jay has had till he's 43 and still hasn't charted 2 #1 singles)

===============


When you look at all this factual evidence... Do you still look at Jay-Z in the same light?


He basically got Silver / Bronze medals (or often times worse) for 15 years... Michael Phelps is a Legend in the Olympics... NOTHING BUT GOLD BABY.. That's WHY he's a legend... So why does Jay get a pass?


Interesting...


ps GOD is 2nd to no one... So GOD MC?? ..... My point exactly. Speak on it. #factsOnly
 
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really

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UPDATE:
-------------


A lot has transpired over these pages, so here is an update:


-FACT - Biggie / Pac Dominated the 90s sales
-FACT - Eminem / Nelly Dominated the 2,000's sales
-FACT - Biggie, Pac, Eminem, 50, Luda, Nelly have more #1 hits than him
-FACT - Jay-Z sold the most albums only 1 year in his career, 2006 (Kindom come, worst album, top 5 players injured: 50, Kanye, Eminem, Wayne didn't drop albums)
-FACT - Eminem is the best selling rap artist of all time
-FACT - Biggie, Pac, Eminem average more platinum plaques per album than Jay
-FACT - Jay-Z only has the 16th best selling rap album of all time, Biggie, 2pac, Eminem all have albums above him
-FACT - Eminem, Lil Wayne, 50 and almost Kanye, have all sold 1 million in their first week.. Something Jay-Z has openly said he wish he could do (but NEVER will)
-FACT - Lil Wayne has the most hits on the Billboard hot 100 of any rapper ever
-FACT - While Big / Pac were alive, Jay-Z never went better than platinum... He went Multi the year after Biggie released his last album.
-FACT - Jay-Z has 12 #1 albums... Graduation / Curtis were released on same day... Graduation #1 album.... Curtis #2 album.... American Gangster #1 album... Curtis outsold American Gangster. (translation, #1 album means NOTHING, the stats above are the meaningful stats)



Jay-Z on Tom Ford: "Numbers don't lie, Check the Scoreboard!"



I got you homie:salute: #factsOnly





---------------------------------



For those that will come say "sales dont mean shyt", cool... Lets just look at Music / Historical impact...

Lets look at Jays 3 /4 "classics" (big stretch on the word classics here)


1996: All Eyez On Me / The Score >>> Reasonable Doubt
1998: Dark and Hell is Hot, Miseducation of Lauryn Hill >>> Volume 2
2001: Stillmatic / Blueprint = Arguable (Tie breaker? He got Ethered and lost the biggest rap battle ever, so, advantage Nas)
2003: Get Rich, Speaker boxx love Below >>> Black Album (or at worst Get Rich does)


So, regardless of sales... Jay still never had a #1 year as far as THEE major / historically classic album in the industry,... Every year he had a "classic", he still got GROSSLY outshined by someone else with a BIGGER classic. There goes that argument.
 
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really

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People want to talk about Jay's "12 number 1 albums", but that means he was #1 for ONE WEEK (or a few weeks).


Curtis / Graduation came out on same day... Graduation #1, Curtis #2


American Gangster came out same year, #1


Curtis sold more than American Gangster.



12 #1 albums = most useless stat in the HISTORY of music. He only had the #1 album for the YEAR once (Kingdome come, his worse album, in a horrible year for albums).


Having #1 album for year (52 weeks) >>> #1 album for a week.


Facts only.
 
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Cladyclad

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People want to talk about Jay's "12 number 1 albums", but that means he was #1 for ONE WEEK (or a few weeks).


Curtis / Graduation came out on same day... Graduation #1, Curtis #2


American Gangster came out same year, #1


Curtis sold more than American Gangster.



12 #1 albums = most useless stat in the HISTORY of music. He only had the #1 album for the YEAR once (Kingdome come, his worse album, in a horrible year for albums).


Having #1 album for year (52 weeks) >>> #1 album for a week.


Facts only.
Ofcourse u would prefer to hav the most records sold instead of just having a number 1 album. More albums sold means more money. But having a thriving career is winning the marathon not sprinting. Like Jay said "niqqas start out fast but the weezing in the back". Jay has had a number 1 debut for 14 years. Luda Nelly 50 Outkast etc... hav been officially tagged as over now. TI Wayne & kinda Kanye are are all on the verge of getting that tag to the public. So in the long run none of those guys that sold more in a year will have more career records sold than Hov. Jay gon go down as the 2nd highest seller ever. Niqqas can say watever Jay has never had a wack album period!!!!! And that's y he still killing mofos out her #FACTS
 

Funcrusher

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Besides the whole topic of being GOAT and what not, which I am not interested in, I think T.I. outsold Kingdom Come in 2006 with King.
 

Yecht

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Kingdom Come is a dope album in hindsight, was spinning it last week :blessed:
 

Prae

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I agree with everything in OP, though I've never considered Jay Z GOAT personally.

Although I disagree with All Eyez On Me > Reasonable Doubt musically, I prefer the later.

Kingdom Come is a dope album in hindsight, was spinning it last week :blessed:
Yea that album is under-rated imo. It's not amazing or anything, but it's pretty good. Has some solid tracks mixed in with some weak ones. I like it better than American Gangster (which I don't care for).


 
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really

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I agree with everything in OP, though I've never considered Jay Z GOAT personally.

Although I disagree with All Eyez On Me > Reasonable Doubt musically, I prefer the later.


Yea that album is under-rated imo. It's not amazing or anything, but it's pretty good. Has some solid tracks mixed in with some weak ones. I like it better than American Gangster (which I don't care for).






Everybody has an "option" musically... I'm talking about a classic among classics.


Some say ATaliens is better than Reasonable Doubt musically, but Reasonable Doubt has the edge as far as "historical impact".... we not bout to sit and get into "which album has better music".... thats all opinion.


This thread = #factsOnly
 
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The OP is suggesting that the ones who think Jay is the best are stat geeks. Cause Jay's been gettin by his whole career on stats... and not only that REMINDING you of his stats. His number of #1 albums, his longevity in the game, his paper, his hot wife, his business reach... Hov leads in a lot of these categories and he's gonna push these on you like it's all that matters.... but realistically this would be like a dude braggin about leadin the league in points but not never winnin the championship. Is he still the best?

Jay never had that scoring title, regular season MVP, and Finals MVP all in one season type years.
 

really

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The OP is suggesting that the ones who think Jay is the best are stat geeks. Cause Jay's been gettin by his whole career on stats... and not only that REMINDING you of his stats. His number of #1 albums, his longevity in the game, his paper, his hot wife, his business reach... Hov leads in a lot of these categories and he's gonna push these on you like it's all that matters.... but realistically this would be like a dude braggin about leadin the league in points but not never winnin the championship. Is he still the best?

Jay never had that scoring title, regular season MVP, and Finals MVP all in one season type years.



My motherfukkin nikka..... You get it!!.. You get it!!!



My point, bottom fukkin line: Any GOAT in HISTORY was at the TOP at one point, PERIOD:



Ali - Classic fights and the most money fights
Mario - Classic games and the most sales
Big mac - classic burger and the most sales
The rock - Best mic skills and most popular


Man I can go on for 10 years.... Jay screams about how he's the BEST all the time, but never was TRULY the best, PERIOD.



This thread is nothing but TRUTH and Ether to anyone who thinks Jay's the goat.



Jay is top 5 to me definitely.... But it's a big difference between top 5 (Magic, Kareem, Bill Russell, Bird) and the G.O.A.T. (Jordan).... A B.I.G. difference (pun intended)



Jordan DOMINATED the sport at times.... Jay never did.... So how can you be Mike Jordan of Mic Recording?..........................
 
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