Jay-Z: How can the "GOAT" Always come in "2nd??" - The ULTIMATE Devils Advocate Thread

[Consigliere]

Hov is the most discussed rapper on this board based on # of threads about him and his ability to derail any thread about any lesser rapper.

Even his haters are able to discuss the intricacies of his catalog, despite their claims of not listening to him

He's remade the entire rap game in his image, before his rise to fame, QB had a movement: Nas, Mobb Deep, Mega, CNN. After his rise to fame, Nas & Nore worked for him, Nature moved to his hood, & everyone else faded into obscurity.
"Etched ya name out, put Jigga on top"

He's basically the most important rapper to pick up a mic; the axis point around which modern rap fans revolve and the measuring stick which they use to place their more struggle prone favorites success and skills in perspective in terms of historical perpetuity.

WWJD? What Would Jay Do? A daily question on TheColi.

 

[Bolzmark]

I don't agree with the always in second place claim made, but for arguments sake lets say that's true. Here is why he would still be considered the GOAT - you cant name a consistent #1 ahead of him. Meaning who may have been #1 during one or two of those years, likely fell off significantly for one reason or another. For example; you can argue maybe that DMX was hotter in '98. Where is he now? Dude is more concerned with crack rocks than rockin the mic these days. No question 50 was that dude when GRODT dropped. In 2013 can 50 even get a release date? Nelly? C'mon.

Consistency is without a doubt the HARDEST thing to achieve in music, especially hip hop. And Jay is killin everybody in that category. We approaching 18 years now. That's nuts.

 

[Jhoon]

his best album, vol 2, had him being outclassed on every track. I really couldnt care about album sales and google hits. when sheek has 2 verses over you, youre beyond poverty.

 

[Skilltastrophy]

people don't even understand what the word fact means

only "facts" that can be discussed in music is album sales...quality of music is far too subjective to call anything about them "fact"

and trying to judge cultural impact on some kind of year to year popularity basis is simply the dumbest thing ever...it shows a profound lack of understanding about how culture is created, shaped, molded, and operates like a living organism that's constantly changing...there's nothing celebratory or great about making a one-year ripple in culture...most ripples are eventually forgotten...remember, collective knowledge is mostly retained through historical records...winners write the history...do you believe 30 years from now people are going to think DMX or Juvenile or T.I. is going to remembered on the same plane as Jay-Z due to them having some big years?...it's a ridiculous notion and frankly one of the silliest anti-Jay arguments I've read on this board...and that's saying something

I'd rather you guys keep posting camel pictures instead...at least those are funny

 

[MiC]

Skilltastrophy hit the nail on the head.

OP made a thread saying #factsonly then started talking about music quality.

The fact remains jay z has outsold every rapper but 2. The 50s nellys waynes and kanyes all had moments but the FACT remains jay sold more records than all of them

ill leave the arguing of music quality to artbarr. That isnt what this thread presents its claims on.

And by the way from a FACTUAL perspective 98 was jay year.

 

[Ineedmoney504]

nikkaz writing essays and shyt bout why jay not the goat, i cant do bra, i seen way to much fukk shyt in this thread to comment on anything or i would be commenting all night

once again, lets think @really for being a faggit, he made his way off peyton nut into the booth

 

[really]

Hov is the most discussed rapper on this board based on # of threads about him and his ability to derail any thread about any lesser rapper.

Even his haters are able to discuss the intricacies of his catalog, despite their claims of not listening to him

He's remade the entire rap game in his image, before his rise to fame, QB had a movement: Nas, Mobb Deep, Mega, CNN. After his rise to fame, Nas & Nore worked for him, Nature moved to his hood, & everyone else faded into obscurity.
"Etched ya name out, put Jigga on top"

He's basically the most important rapper to pick up a mic; the axis point around which modern rap fans revolve and the measuring stick which they use to place their more struggle prone favorites success and skills in perspective in terms of historical perpetuity.

WWJD? What Would Jay Do? A daily question on TheColi.

Big and Pac have been gone for almost 2 decades, and they are still discussed at least, lets say, 40% (each) as much as Jay?


By my calculations, if Big and Pac never died, they'd be discussed about 300 to 400% MORE than Jay... (this, of course, assuming Jay would still have his current stature if they were alive, which, HE WOULDN'T... which, in turn, they would be discussed about 1,000% as much as Jay)


Gotta give it to you bro.... Nice angle.... You tried.... You made sense.... I made more sense.


Happens to the best of us

 

[really]

Another point: I can make the claim that Justin Beiber, RIGHT NOW is discussed more than Elvis / Michael Jackson.....



Beiber >>>> Elvis / Michael?




(GODDAMN I'm untouchable at this debating shyt.... damn)

 

[grock2727]

Jay is somewhere between 3 and 6 depending on where you want to place him

I wish I had time to go over all the essays in this thread, maybe over the next couple of days, except for the ones from the weirdo who goes on and on and on in unintelligible phrases. Anyway, I caught this one because you started this thread, and I see nothing wrong with the quoted sentence above, why does everyone have to agree? Just because I and a hell of a lot of people think Jay is the GOAT it doesn't mean you have to, this whole thread is nothing but a great distraction for those with time on their hands, like me right now.

I do notice though that you are careful in choosing your words, take this quote for example:

Top business man from rap ever? He's #2 to puff.

Top business man from rap is one thing, but if Jay is #2 in your book then I can easily counter that Jay is the top business man MC ever, since we all know Diddy is not actually a rapper. Also, for Lil Wayne you wrote that he has more material then Jay as a positive, neglecting the common opinion that most of it is garbage. He also does not have FAR more hits than Jay, I'd like to see an actual comparison, I bet it's be closer than you think. I would wager that at his concerts Wayne does more of other artists songs than his own. Dominating rap and selling a million only speaks to extreme popularity in a certain time frame, are you saying that 50 Cent also has a legitimate case for GOAT? Are Nsync and Backstreet Boys also contenders for greatest groups of all time as well? Would you say they have a case against the Jackson 5? And Limp Bizkit is a contender for greatest band as well right? I give props to any artist who can convince a million people to buy an album, whether its in a day, a week or a decade. Remember it took Illmatic 7 years to go platinum. In the end only your career total really counts, and Wayne isn't looking too good in that department.

Anyway there's really no point in picking apart anyones argument, you have Jay between 3 and 6, that's not bad at all.

 

[really]

I wish I had time to go over all the essays in this thread, maybe over the next couple of days, except for the ones from the weirdo who goes on and on and on in unintelligible phrases. Anyway, I caught this one because you started this thread, and I see nothing wrong with the quoted sentence above, why does everyone have to agree? Just because I and a hell of a lot of people think Jay is the GOAT it doesn't mean you have to, this whole thread is nothing but a great distraction for those with time on their hands, like me right now.

I do notice though that you are careful in choosing your words, take this quote for example:



Top business man from rap is one thing, but if Jay is #2 in your book then I can easily counter that Jay is the top business man MC ever, since we all know Diddy is not actually a rapper. Also, for Lil Wayne you wrote that he has more material then Jay as a positive, neglecting the common opinion that most of it is garbage. He also does not have FAR more hits than Jay, I'd like to see an actual comparison, I bet it's be closer than you think. I would wager that at his concerts Wayne does more of other artists songs than his own. Dominating rap and selling a million only speaks to extreme popularity in a certain time frame, are you saying that 50 Cent also has a legitimate case for GOAT? Are Nsync and Backstreet Boys also contenders for greatest groups of all time as well? Would you say they have a case against the Jackson 5? And Limp Bizkit is a contender for greatest band as well right? I give props to any artist who can convince a million people to buy an album, whether its in a day, a week or a decade. Remember it took Illmatic 7 years to go platinum. In the end only your career total really counts, and Wayne isn't looking too good in that department.

Anyway there's really no point in picking apart anyones argument, you have Jay between 3 and 6, that's not bad at all.

Bro: the fact that DoggyStyle, Get rich or Die trying, Chronic, Miseducation of Lauryn hill, Ready to Die, Life after Death, All Eyez on me, 7 day theory (etc, etc ETC) are all CERTIFIED CLASSICS and... keyword, AND sold a shyt load of copies is a major deal.


Your argument about Nsync, Backstreet boys and all that shyt is a mute point, because all the greats put out classics and moved units... I think being able to strike the perfect balance between exceptional art and commercial appeal means a LOT... thats when you get GROUNDBREAKING albums.... Which Jay, unfortunately, has never had. (Ready to Die = Ground Breaking... Reasonable Doubt = Classic... thats the difference)



Lil Wayne has more hits on the billboard hot 100 than Elvis Presley... Doesn't matter if a lot of them were other peoples songs, Wayne had a LOT to do with those songs being successfull, since he was on the hook for 75% of them (Make it Rain, I'm going in.... etc X 5,000)


The Block is hot - Hot Album
Guerilla Warfare = Hot Album


Carter 1, 2, 3, ... All hot albums... Dedication mixtapes... all hot....



I'll stop there... To say Wayne has more music than Jay but it's "garbage" is just inaccurate.. You seemed pretty unbiased until then. From his hotboys days till today, most of Wayne's music has been good. Wayne has been around since 1997, lets not forget.

 

[ROFL_GUY]

@Art Barr is a coli treasure. the knowledge




everyone should take the time to read his posts

 

[really]

Oh, and as far as "top business man" from the rap game, what exactly does that mean?


Peyton Manning = better business man that Joe Montanna and Tom Brady.... Many feel brady and Montana are better at FOOTBALL

Jay = top business man rapper (if that really means something to you), but that doesn't mean Eminem or Nas won't light his ass up on a Microphone.


The only person who was ever the best at both was Jordan.... Which, AGAIN, just lends reason to why he's NOT Mike Jordan of this Mic Recording.


If you want to say Jay-Z is the top Media Mogul ever from rap,, cool... That still doesn't mean he's best to pic up a mic... In 30 years, I won't give a fukk what this dude invested in or that he Married Beyonce... I'll be shedding tears listening to Notorious thugs and Victory. #learnTheDifference

 

[razassin]

Jay Z is a self proclaimed GOAT

I think rappers dikkride him cuz of the pull he has in the industry n not cuz they really think hes the best...

His self praise n his fans have made me kinda hate him a bit... Jay has been consistant... Ly mediocre.... Yeah his singles get spins on the radio but thats cuz hes sorrounded by a really good team...

He hasnt been good since volume 2 n has been totally wack since volume 3

I just laugh at his fans who only praise him for his fortune n for his wife... Like he sharin any of that with them... Theyll argue only winners relate to him... Well nikka lets see how many checks he gone write when u deep in debt...

 

[MiC]

Big and Pac have been gone for almost 2 decades, and they are still discussed at least, lets say, 40% (each) as much as Jay?


By my calculations, if Big and Pac never died, they'd be discussed about 300 to 400% MORE than Jay... (this, of course, assuming Jay would still have his current stature if they were alive, which, HE WOULDN'T... which, in turn, they would be discussed about 1,000% as much as Jay)


Gotta give it to you bro.... Nice angle.... You tried.... You made sense.... I made more sense.


Happens to the best of us

Pac and big got bigger after they died. Who is to say if they were still alive dropping albums in 2013 they would be talked about more than jay? Thats a huge assumption with no factual basis

And the dmx/wayne/50/nelly from your earlier argument are all still alive and not discussed (or sold) nearly as much as jay

#factsonly

You tried. You failed

 

[Sensitive Blake Griffin]

Please stop bringing sales into discussions about quality of music. You're trying far too hard to hate on Jay.