Jay-Z: How can the "GOAT" Always come in "2nd??" - The ULTIMATE Devils Advocate Thread

[Mac Casper]

Big and Pac have been gone for almost 2 decades, and they are still discussed at least, lets say, 40% (each) as much as Jay?


By my calculations, if Big and Pac never died, they'd be discussed about 300 to 400% MORE than Jay... (this, of course, assuming Jay would still have his current stature if they were alive, which, HE WOULDN'T... which, in turn, they would be discussed about 1,000% as much as Jay)


Gotta give it to you bro.... Nice angle.... You tried.... You made sense.... I made more sense.


Happens to the best of us

 

[Mac Casper]

I don't agree with the always in second place claim made, but for arguments sake lets say that's true. Here is why he would still be considered the GOAT - you cant name a consistent #1 ahead of him. Meaning who may have been #1 during one or two of those years, likely fell off significantly for one reason or another. For example; you can argue maybe that DMX was hotter in '98. Where is he now? Dude is more concerned with crack rocks than rockin the mic these days. No question 50 was that dude when GRODT dropped. In 2013 can 50 even get a release date? Nelly? C'mon.

Consistency is without a doubt the HARDEST thing to achieve in music, especially hip hop. And Jay is killin everybody in that category. We approaching 18 years now. That's nuts.

Mac Dre > Jay-Z in consistency and tenure

 

[really]

Pac and big got bigger after they died. Who is to say if they were still alive dropping albums in 2013 they would be talked about more than jay? Thats a huge assumption with no factual basis

And the dmx/wayne/50/nelly from your earlier argument are all still alive and not discussed (or sold) nearly as much as jay

#factsonly

You tried. You failed

Biggie was the biggest thing in the game in 1994.. Pac in 1996.... BEFORE they died.


Dmx a Crack head, Wayne is much more popular than Jay-Z musically (you really brought up wayne? Your feelings must be hurt), Nelly / 50 weren't really respected artists, just gimmicks.


Keep trying to throw punches... One might stick sooner or later.

 

[Mac Casper]

Biggie was the biggest thing in the game in 1994.. Pac in 1996.... BEFORE they died.


Dmx a Crack head, Wayne is much more popular than Jay-Z musically (you really brought up wayne? Your feelings must be hurt), Nelly / 50 weren't really respected artists, just gimmicks.


Keep trying to throw punches... One might stick sooner or later.

Ya breh, his logic just isn't there. Tupac generated over $100 million in sales for 1996, that's pop stratosphere . . there's no comparison

 

[Still Benefited]

Biggie was the biggest thing in the game in 1994.. Pac in 1996.... BEFORE they died.


Dmx a Crack head, Wayne is much more popular than Jay-Z musically (you really brought up wayne? Your feelings must be hurt), Nelly / 50 weren't really respected artists, just gimmicks.


Keep trying to throw punches... One might stick sooner or later.

Biggie was bigger than Bone Thugs and Snoop in 94...I guess there will be no mention of Master P becoming a phenom in 97 and No Limit being a beast collectivley in 98....we fuked with them No Limit nikkas more than Jay and DMX over the course of that actual YEAR because there was that Master P overlap from 97..

But here's why this thread is a joke,your going back looking at years albums came out and not taking into consideration something called overlap....Snoop dropped Doggystyle in December of 93,so just because the calender year runs out he don't have a say so in 94 but Biggie ran that shyt instead?...oh and another thing you failed to mention,muthafukin Bone Thugs dropped Creepin On Ah Come Up...they don't have a say so in 94?Biggie ran that shyt with a iron fist right


In 2001,Jay still has songs carrying over from the Roclafamila album lol,is killin folks remixes,but I guess u gon act like Fiesta wasn't the biggest song in hiphop for a minute that year...drops takeover which has everybody talkin,drops hits like izzo and girls,girls,girls....drops blueprint a classic.

And let me get this right,since Nas comes in mid December 18,2001 and releases Stillmatic and Ether....this means Jay didn't have 2001,bcuz of nas making a significant impact finally in the last 2 weeks of Decemeber?


Problem with these who ran what for what year is rap fans have short term memories,and like to make up bullshyt to prove they sorry azz points....nikkas very rarely have a whole year with a iron fist....I believe Pac had 96 where I was at locked,but part of that was him making the most noise for shyt outside of music too like the beef...so if you gon do this little year thing how the fukk jay don't get 2001 for not only having the classic music like Pac,but for also causin controversy by shyttin on jada and remixing songs better than that nikka,and people thinking they would beef....then he turns around and shyts on Nas and Mobb Deep which has everybody talking....and not just for the last 2 weeks of the damn year.


I just proved my point,my memory is short term as well,but I got a lightly better recollection than you to realize some of this shyt you was sayin didn't add up for some reason...like Biggie runnin 94 but not snoop and bone....no mention of 97-98 Master P for god sakes.


Rarely did rappers have whole years to themselves until this shyt got watered down like a mufuka and fell off.....goats had stretches though,and I know damn well from bein there in 98-2001 Jay had some stretches....but go ahead and kick ya lil lies,or facts that don't even got all the players involved....numbers don't lie unless sumbody fudgin the numbers or believes the last 15 days in a year can decide a calender year that has 365 days on it...but I get it,I give the year to whoever I fuked with the most that year too...that last 15 days of nas mustve been incredible for you

 

[MexicanKingpin]

Jay's MOST MEMORABLE SONG OF HIS CAREER is "Hard Knock Life"... Hands down... Thats the song you'll most likely remember from him 20 years from now.



Biggie:
-------
who shot ya
one more chance remix
big poppa
kick in the door
Hypnotize
Mo Money Mo Porblems
Get Money
Juicy
Notorious Thugs
Victory



Pac
---
California Love
Dear Mama
Hit em Up
Hail Mary
Keep Ya Head Up
Ambitions as a Ridah
Me and My Girlfriend




Snoop
-----
Gin and Juice
Whats my Name



Nas
---
The World is Yours
Lifes a bytch
If I ruled the world
Ether






ALL OF THESE SONGS are more memorable than Hard Knock life.... JAY'S MOST POPULAR SONG....


Notice Biggie has like 8 songs more memorable... Pac 7... Arguably more.... Again, this with Pac / Big having 4 years, and Jay 20.



Even Nas makes more timeless classic songs than Jay.



fukk albums... in 30 years, you'll be making mixtapes of the most timeless classic songs.



If you made a mixtape of the most timeless classic songs from the 1990s / 2000s, Jay, the "Goat", would not have ONE SONG ON IT..... and THAT can't be disputed. (this list doesn't include shyt like in da club, 1st of the month, crossroads, killing me softly, O.P.P, nothing but a G thang... and probably 100 other songs more memorable than hard knock life)



Jay just aint that guy yall.

Lol@ you giving biggie more classic tracks then pac u forgot

I get around
can't c me
2 of amerikkas most wanted
krazy
starting through my rearview
Until the end of time
Changes
all about you
i wonder if heaven's got a ghetto
pour out a lil liqour
if my homies call
the list goes on and on

 

[MiC]

Biggie was the biggest thing in the game in 1994.. Pac in 1996.... BEFORE they died.


Dmx a Crack head, Wayne is much more popular than Jay-Z musically (you really brought up wayne? Your feelings must be hurt), Nelly / 50 weren't really respected artists, just gimmicks.


Keep trying to throw punches... One might stick sooner or later.

Sorry but big was NOT biggest in 94. Doggystyle dropped with a month left in 93 and carried through 94 selling way more in 94 than big did.
Bigs big year was the year he died that's it.

As for PAC remember from the jump I said according to your argument of relevancy that he and em are bigger than jay. I'm just arguing jay is 3rd.

The way you backed down on DMX nelly and 50 proves my point.

It stands that aside from em and PAC no rapper has ever seen the relevancy of jay z, no matter what your false year to year analysis shows

 

[McPiff]

OP started correctly but as the thread went, his homotional paragraphs took over.



oh and longetivity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*

 

[swerve]

I've entered the thread and ready to split some of the jay-z stans arguments

 

[grock2727]

Bro: the fact that DoggyStyle, Get rich or Die trying, Chronic, Miseducation of Lauryn hill, Ready to Die, Life after Death, All Eyez on me, 7 day theory (etc, etc ETC) are all CERTIFIED CLASSICS and... keyword, AND sold a shyt load of copies is a major deal.


Your argument about Nsync, Backstreet boys and all that shyt is a mute point, because all the greats put out classics and moved units... I think being able to strike the perfect balance between exceptional art and commercial appeal means a LOT... thats when you get GROUNDBREAKING albums.... Which Jay, unfortunately, has never had. (Ready to Die = Ground Breaking... Reasonable Doubt = Classic... thats the difference)

I think you missed my point, in the Lil Wayne category you wrote "and sold a million in a week" as if that's some sort of artistic accomplishment that has some bearing on a GOAT discussion. I countered that some of the worst artists to come around have the same accomplishment, so what does it point to other than popularity? So it's really not a moot (not mute) point, because even in your own description of Lil Wayne you made no mention of the actual quality of his work, which you did for Big, Pac, Em and Nas. You are the one who made an argument for Lil Wayne in that passage based solely on quantity and popularity, not quality, I find that very telling of you.

Lil Wayne has more hits on the billboard hot 100 than Elvis Presley... Doesn't matter if a lot of them were other peoples songs, Wayne had a LOT to do with those songs being successfull, since he was on the hook for 75% of them (Make it Rain, I'm going in.... etc X 5,000)

No he doesn't, a quick Google led me to this result in wikipedia:

Most Hot 100 entries

• Glee Cast (207)
• Elvis Presley (149) (Pre-Hot 100 and Hot 100 included)
• Lil Wayne (120)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_chart_achievements_and_milestones

You fell for the hype, when the media reported that he surpassed Elvis they noted in their articles that many of Elvis' biggest hits were prior to the chart being introduced, so Wayne had an "*" next to that achievement. They have since corrected it and the results are what you see above. What happened to "#factsonly"? This kind of makes me want to look at your initial post twice, but it doesn't really matter. And "a lot" of them not being Waynes songs are an understatement, how about damn near 2/3 of them. At the time of him "breaking" Elvis' record, which was Dec 2012, Wayne accounted for being the lead artist only 42 out of 109 times. As you can see he's now at 120, and he's had about 2 or 3 this year so lets put him at 45 or a generous 50 to play it safe. That might not matter to you, but it matters to me, its subjective just like your next quote:

The Block is hot - Hot Album
Guerilla Warfare = Hot Album
Carter 1, 2, 3, ... All hot albums... Dedication mixtapes... all hot....
I'll stop there... To say Wayne has more music than Jay but it's "garbage" is just inaccurate.. You seemed pretty unbiased until then. From his hotboys days till today, most of Wayne's music has been good. Wayne has been around since 1997, lets not forget.

How can my opinion be inaccurate? If you believe that those are hot then so be it, I won't tell you you're wrong, some of those actually are. Those that you mentioned though are way less then half his catalogue, so it doesn't really argue my point.

Oh, and as far as "top business man" from the rap game, what exactly does that mean?

I have no idea, as far as I know you brought it up. Didn't you see where I quoted you?

By my calculations, if Big and Pac never died...

Do you really not see how stupid that sounds? How do you calculate something with so many variables? All you can do is guess, and my guess is that they both would have either fell off or become eventual Gold artists like Nas. There is only one artist who dropped albums in the Big/Pac era and is still going platinum today, guess who that is? What if Nas had gotten killed after "Illmatic"? What if LL had been killed after "Mama Said..."? Or if Snoop got killed after "Doggystyle"? Yall would have been talking the same shyt about them.

History has proven one thing, Jay z is an anomaly, the exception to the rule that you'd be lucky to even have a 5 year career in hip hop and there's no way a 40 year old rapper is getting a #1 album, going platinum or selling out arenas. Common sense would dictate that the odds are greatly in favor of Big and Pac having fallen off by now, but people don't really use common sense when it comes to them.

 

[Homeboy Runny-Ray]

this is a commercial ass article.

lol @ most of the names being mentioned.

 

[Bolzmark]

Mac Dre > Jay-Z in consistency and tenure

I'm talking consistency and tenure near or at the top of the rap game. For that matter there are several dudes from the 80's still making records.

 

[Jone2three45]

Jay Z lucky he still can swim enough to dikk ride the new waves, the crown should have been handed over to the next person a long time ago.

 

[Nature Boy Ric Flair]

**Warning, long post, but MUST READ** #factsOnly


Many hail Jay-Z as the greatest rapper ever... Mostly due to consistency...


But it can be argued, that legends, of ANY KIND, all have 1 thing in common: They absolutely GALVANIZED, CONSUMED, AND DOMINATED their Sport / Art form at ONE POINT IN TIME... Where they were UNDENIABLY, UNDISPUTABLY the big dawg on the block, the shyt... the, "HOLY GRAIL", for lack of a better term....


1991 - 1998... NOBODY outshined Jordan... Nobody.
I wasn't old enough, but of course Babe Ruth had his years
Magic Johnson had his years where not even BIRD outshined him or outclassed him
Floyd Mayweather had his years... 2nd to NOBODY... Not even Pacquiao
Mike Tyson had his years...
Ali had his years.. 2nd to none
Michael Jackson had his years... 2nd to Prince? Not in a million years....
Stone Cold / Hulk Hogan may be 2 most popular wrestlers EVER.. But The Rock had his years where they were 2nd (legend)
Bob Barker 2nd to Pat Say Jack?
Coke 2nd to Pepsi?
Mario 2nd to Sonic?
Lebron 2nd to Durant?


I can go on and on forever... No matter what the platform... The TRUE LEGENDS... The TRUE GOATS... All had their time where they were 2nd to NOBODY.... (look up Kevin Durant interviews where he says "I'm tired of finishing 2nd to Lebron")...


So, this begs the Question: Regardless of his consistency and longevity, how can Jay be the GOD Emcee if he always finishes 2nd??? Over and over..... 2nd, 2nd 2nd... (or worse)...

One can make the argument, that Jay just has his consistent, loyal group of stans / fans that will buy his albums till he's 80... regardless of quality.


BUT, he never actually GALVANIZED the culture... Like Snoop in 1993... Biggie in 1994 / 1997... Pac in 1996.. Puffy in 1997... DMX in 1998... Eminem in 2000.. 50 Cent in 2003... Lil Wayne in 2008...

I can go on....


When THESE nikkaS mashed on the scene... They were 2nd to NOBODY.... It wasn't even DEBATABLE...

There was an aura in your life, whether you were a fan or not, that something BIG is going down... The feeling when Get Rich or Die trying dropped... it felt like a holiday for a month... The air smelt different... shyt just felt different when this nikka dropped that album... That's the definition of GALVANIZING the culture...


Disagree? Well, Jay said it himself: Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont?...


1996 - All Eyez on Me (9x Plat), The Score (6mil), It Was Written (4mil) (reasonable what?)
1997 - Life after Death, No Way Out, Wu-Tang Forever, Harlem World
1998 - Dark and Hell is Hot, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, 400 Degreez (can make the Argument Vol 2 >> 400 Degreez, but its no doubt 1998 was X's / Lauryn's year.. Sales + classics wise)
1999 - Chronic 2001, And then there was X..., Slim Shady LP
2000 - Marshall Mathers LP, Country Grammer
2001* - Stillmatic, *Bluprint, Word of Mouth, Pain is Love
2002 - Nellyville, The Eminem Show
2003 - Get Rich or Die Trying, SpeakerBoxx / Love Below
2004 - The College Drop out, Encore
2005 - Late Registration, The Massacre, The Documentary
2006* - Food and Liqour, *Kingdom Come, Doctors Advocate, Hip Hop is Dead
2007 - Graduation, Curtis, T.I. vs TIP
2008 - Carter 3, Paper Trail
2009 - Relapse, Only built 4 Cuban lynx 2
2010 - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, Recovery, Thank me Later
2011 - Carter 4, Take Care
2012 - Good Kid Madd City
2013 - *Soon to be Marshall Mathers LP 2 or Nothing was the same (sales wise)



The 2 years you can ARGUE for Jay?

2001, 2006:

2001: the Blueprint was outsold by Word of Mouth / Pain is love.. Plus it's the year he got "Ethered", and later ADMITTED he lost the BIGGEST RAP BATTLE IN HISTORY, "2nd place" (Stillmatic also went double platinum like the Blueprint to boot.. Advantage Nas)..


2006: Kingdom come was the best selling rap album that year... But that was a HISTORICALLY weak year for albums.. Many would say Kingdom come is one of (if not) Jays worst albums and that Doctors advocate was a close classic that year, and Food and Liqour was an actual classic. Complex calls kingdom come Jays worst solo album: http://www.complex.com/music/2013/07/ranking-jay-zs-albums-from-worst-to-best/kingdom-come

Nas "Hip Hop is Dead" was also a huge deal in 2006... (Kingdom Come being his worst album but one of his best selling can be attributed to a weak climate and Jay-Z doing Budwiser / HP commercials that year to promote it.)



But, it goes beyond albums, lets look at singles:

Nelly - 4 #1 hits (many with him singing hook)
50 Cent - 3 #1 hits (2 with him singing hook)
Luda - 2 # 1 hits (1 with him singing hook, the other he's half of the hook)
Eminem - 4 #1 hits (3 with him singing hook)
Kanye - 2 #1 hits (2 with him singing hook)
Lil Wayne - only 1 #1 hit (with him on hook, Lolli Pop)... But it don't matter, since he surpassed Elvis Presley with the most hits on the Bill board hot 100 chart in history.

Jay-Z - 1 #1 hit in 20 years (Empire state of mind with Alicia on the hook... His other biggest song ever was Hard Knock Life... So his 2 biggest songs of his career had bytches carrying the song.. Shout out to Annie)

*Biggie / 2pac: Both had 2 #1 singles each... (In all 4 songs, someone else did the hook..[hypnotize, mo money mo problems, how do u want it, california love).. But we know they died at 24, Jay has had till he's 43 and still hasn't charted 2 #1 singles)

===============


When you look at all this factual evidence... Do you still look at Jay-Z in the same light?


He basically got Silver / Bronze medals (or often times worse) for 15 years... Michael Phelps is a Legend in the Olympics... NOTHING BUT GOLD BABY.. That's WHY he's a legend... So why does Jay get a pass?


Interesting...


ps GOD is 2nd to no one... So GOD MC?? ..... My point exactly. Speak on it. #factsOnly

THIS fakkit SPENT 3 DAYS PREPARING THIS ESSAY. EVERYDAY TELLING HIMSELF THAT THE BREHS ON THE COLI GONNA BE SO IMPRESSED WITH HIS RESEARCH AND WRITING SKILLS.

BE A fakkit AND WRITE ESSAYS BREHS

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Nomad1]

@really