lets discuss drummond being the best player of the first week of the season

[WOAHMYGOODNESS]

I think its an insult to drummonds improvements, potential, and attemptd to compare him to deandre jordan
Jordan has never shown any steps towards a post move in 7 years while drummond has had rasheed wallace brought in to help him learn the jump hook and a coach in van gundy who's built a team arounf drummonds abilities currentlt and potential post moves
Deandre and doc claiming jordan would become more of a focal point of the offense was a lie so deandre could not be exposed in dallas as a tyson chandler lite and still get his lobs and finishes with cp3 and blake surronding him

Meanwhile dre has had 3 coaches so far in his four year career, 2 different starting pgs with different skill sets, a clogged paint with josh smith snd greg monroe, and he still leads the league in double doubles since 2013 and is 11th in 20 20 games while he is developing post moves at age 22 during his 4th year in the league

Jordan was as malts daid andy varajao with athleticism and no rsnge as a shooter snd no post moves ever

 

[DetroitEWarren]

His offensive capability and ceiling are a lot higher than Dwight's, that's for sure.

He's a beast. He definitely belongs in the conversation with Davis and Cousins as the best young big in the league.

Dude gonna be unreal at 26/27. Bullying his way to 30-15 and 3 blocks whenever he feels like it.

Don't hurt em

I disagree with this, cause his body control in the post is. I love Drum and he is one if the best C in the game, but since last year since he gets a lot of post ups, he is just not very good when he has to create for himself. He is shooting a horrible % for a nikka who takes no shyts further than 5ft from the basket. I don't see him ever becoming a great scorer, but he is already a game changer with everything else he does.

I'D rather him work on a 10 ft jumpshot than forcing him to post up. Bigs RARELY become better back to basket scorers, but it's easy to add a face up jumper.

When I see how great Towns looks in the post and just how bad Drum looks at tines, I don't want Detroit to waste posessions trying to force that ya dig. He can get 15 and 15 every night without the constant post ups. We got a deep ass team this year

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Where have I said Drummond has an array of moves? I said he's shown more than DeAndre, who has essentially shown nothing, despite being in the league longer. He put up similar numbers with a better team while being used specifically as a garbage man and nothing more, he's had better teammates than Drummond with similar usage rates yet has never scored more than him.

Their usage rates aren't similar at all, and don't curtail the margin in their respective usage as if it's "similar" - then use that against DeAndre "never" scoring more than him - when it's anything but.

DeAndre:

2012 - 15.9 usage %
2013 - 12.4 usage %
2015 - 13.6 usage %
2016 - 12.3 usage %

Drummond:

2012 - 17.2 usage % (1.3% more than DeAndre)
2013 - 16.7 usage % (4.3% more than DeAndre)
2014 - 22.0 usage % (8.4% more than DeAndre)
2015 - 24.2 usage % (11.9% more than DeAndre)

How the hell is he suppose to score more points when he doesn't get the same amount of touches that Drummond gets because BG/CP/Crawford take up the majority of possessions?

Let's be all the way honest here, Drummond has been a garbage man his entire career too. Sure, on the odd occasion he can create his own basket, yet the majority of his points come from favorable matchups, PNR action and offensive rebounds - the same as DeAndre.

Similar numbers does not mean similar players, I saw enough of Drummond in the post last year to say he's better at it than DeAndre.

This doesn't make much sense. If they're both putting up similar numbers (DeAndre actually put up better #s when given a offensive load similar to Drummond - when BG was out), how aren't they comparable as players? Yes, I understand that Drummond is better in the post - but that doesn't mean he's automatically the better player - let alone a player on another level.

Can you explain your logic behind this reasoning, and not just the limited shyt Drummond does in the post. Because as far as I see it, if given the same amount of touches:

they put up almost identical base stats
relatively the same completion rate from the FT line
still are limited in creating their own offense
get their majority of points from offensive rebounds and favorable matchups
are competent defensive anchors (DeAndre having the slight edge)

Up to this point - they pretty much have the same impact on the game. I'm not talking about what Drummond may do in the future - I'm talking about right now.

This seems eerily similar to how you'd measure Dwight's impact; sure there were players who were better in the post than Dwight (prior to his back injury), but that didn't mean wasn't comparable or even better than them?

What flashes? there aren't any numbers to back up the idea that he can play in the post, there are no clips, no nothing..

There are clips floating around the net. But that's beside the point, because he hardly ever is given the opportunity to work on them in game because there isn't enough touches to go around for him to consistently build rhythm.

If he doesn't have the footwork, offhand, touch or agility how are they similar players?

i) Because what impact you have on the game isn't all about your post ability.
ii) Drummond shows potential on the odd occasion of what he's capable of - he doesn't do it on a regular basis - as by the fact they have similar #s in relation to their workloads

They're similar players in that they have similar impact on the game = big men who average similar points, who generate their offense from banging the offensive glass, cleaning up in the lane and finishing on PNR opportunities and who're competent defensive anchors.

Just because Drummond may have better moves down low and has shown more ability in the post - doesn't mean they aren't comparable.

I'm asking for clips of DeAndre working in the post because if they were truly similar that would be an easy way to point it out, just because two guys get similar numbers doesn't mean they are the same player. Tyreke Evans and Bradley Beal posted similar numbers last year, are they the same player?

Postseason aside, yes they were comparable. Their impact on the game was similar. You could actually argue that Tyreke had a better regular season than Beal did. The talking points surrounding both players last season were that neither were gonna amount to shyt.

Surely you could've come up with a better comparison to emphasize your point.

How you get your numbers matters, Drummond was getting featured in the post with his back to the basket when he was scoring, while DeAndre was still just a PnR garbage man.

Drummond was only scoring in the post on the odd occasion - most of his points were from offensive rebounds, PNR to the rim opportunities and defensive breakdowns. You're making it seem as if he was the go-to man for the Pistons. He clearly wasn't. He's not a threat down below, yet.

I never implied that he was Boogie, Jefferson, Randolph etc. but he has been getting the ball on the block and it started last season, I know he can score for himself, I can't say the same about DeAndre.

Yeah, at a terribly inefficient rate. He isn't asked to create for himself regularly. If you were to give DeAndre the same touches in the post that Drummond gets - there wouldn't be that much difference between their completion rates. Drummond has had 18 post up opportunities this season - yet has only completed three of them. I'm sure DeAndre could replicate that, sure it wouldn't be pretty and the display of counter moves would be minimal, but he'd get the job done in similar fashion.

Considering the Clippers have run 0 post ups for DeAndre so far, how can you say he can do anything? Going purely by stats his percentage is zero

Because from what I've seen in the past, he isn't as bad as most make him out to be. Not only that but Rivers doesn't bother to explore any alternative regularly enough for him to showcase what he's capable of. CP never dumps the ball down to him on the block either.

You're trying to knock Andre for being a work in progress which I've said, while neglecting the fact DeAndre has never handed in any homework. How can you definitively say he could do anything in the post, site Drummond's post up numbers, and have absolutely no numbers on DeAndre in the post as a counterpoint?

Because there isn't a large enough sample size worthy of bringing to the table that would actually be indicative of his ability, because he doesn't enough touches.

The only season where he's actually been giving freedom (and I use that term loosely) to create for himself was in 2013 - where he had 60 hook shots at a 56% completion rate - which is an above average hook shot to total shot ratio.

DeAndre - 12% of total shots were hooks in 2013 at 56% (on 41 post ups)
Drummond - 19% of total shots were in hooks in 2015 at 42% (on 113 post ups)

Now factor in he can complete at a competent rate, with an efficiency adjustment - he could take on 100 post up opportunities if he was actually given the ball more frequently. Which is part of the reason why if he went to Dallas, you would see him have more of a role on offense, instead of where he is now - Paul using him simply around the rim to inflate his assists, pushing the tempo and on dribble drives.

Can you imagine how many [little] opportunities Drummond would get if he were in DeAndre's place?

He's not in Dallas, and the fact of the matter is the Clippers STILL wont run any post plays for him, Doc Rivers used to run the occassional post play for Kendrick Perkins, yet on a team with ample shooting and a PF starting to take more threes they still won't give this dude the ball on the block?

Because the Clippers run a completely different offense to those late 00s Boston teams; playing at a faster pace with more PNR action. All the roll to the rim opportunities pretty much take up his designed touches. It also doesn't help that his PG micromanages all his plays.

Dallas would have used him like they did Tyson Chandler, nobody that has never been a feature in the post and been in the league for 7 years is going to turn into the focal point of an offense.

I'm sure Carlisle would've given him regular touches on the block, probably not to a "focal point of an offense" scale as Parsons would be running the show but we'd certainly get a better picture of his ability than we do now.

Why should I stop talking about post ups, it's a distinct way to point out their differences, one has a rudimentary back to the basket game and the other doesn't.

Because whatever difference there is in their post ability, doesn't outweigh all their other similarities. Again, Drummond rarely creates his own offense in the post, up to this point of his career. Your argument would make sense if he was posting up regularly and completing at a rate that would place him on a tier above, but he clearly doesn't.

If we were to split hairs, Drummond is the better player, yet that doesn't mean they aren't comparable - that doesn't mean the impact they have on the court isn't similar, because it is.

So let me get this straight, you're using his numbers when BG was out, meanwhile Drummond was still playing with high usage players in Jackson and Monroe? Yet you also pointed out that CP3 & Blake are high usage So how can you compare their numbers in that case, you're removing one high usage player from the equation while Drummond still had to deal with 2

DeAndre's usage rate while BG was out was 16.5 - compared to Drummond's 23.1.

Not only that but are you forgetting that BG and CP weren't the only players who had higher usage rates than DeAndre?

During that period, Crawford, Paul, Reddikk, Rivers and Hawes all had higher usage rates - that's FIVE players. Drummond only had ONE player in Jackson who had a higher usage rate (he was basically equal with Monroe) over that end quarter of the season.

Also, how you get your numbers does matter, Drummond and Jordan are not used the same, because as you can see from the NBA.com/stats there are no post ups for Jordan.

That's because those stats are from the two games this season. Not last season

DeAndre is closer to a prime Anderson Varejao than he is Drummond, I don't understand how you can look at the numbers and see 70% of DeAndre's offense being created for him vs 58% for Drummond and come to the conclusion that they are really comparable.

Because Drummond doesn't have to play with i) a PG who micromanages his possessions ii) play in an offense with limited touches iii) primarily used for his jumping ability. Drummond wouldn't get the same opportunities he's had in Detroit to create for himself had he been in DeAndre's place, since he was drafted. Not to mention Drummond has the benefit of developing under SVG, where DJ is stuck with Doc.

I'm sure if SVG had DeAndre instead - he'd soon work out what kind of post load he could handle, while utilizing his skillset properly - not have him just throwing down lobs.

We have never see DeAndre do any kind of work in the post, and his team treats giving him the ball on the block like it's the plague despite the fact that would be a nice weapon to have.

Their offense can't handle another post up player. They play too fast and there's not enough spacing - they aren't the Grizzlies - which is why more touches for DeAndre would be harmful to their offense because it would mean less 3-pt opportunities (given the fact that BG and CP wouldn't cut down their possession counts).

If they were kids, Drummond would be taking his first shakey steps, meanwhile DeAndre has a developmental problem and is still crawling, and those steps for Drummond started last season.

If you were to take into account every single thing they did on the court (cue defensive roles), their percentages/production in relation to usage/touches - you would see that they have comparable influence/impact on the game.

 

[Malta]

I had to cut some of your text, we went over the 1500 limit @Gil Scott-Heroin

We were talking about the usage rates of their teammates, which you mentioned in an earlier post and I continued thereafter, I was clearly talking about his teammates and even said it prior to that bolded out text. How is he supposed to score if he doesn't get the touches? Isn't that kind of the point, they don't give him the ball because he can't do it, they see him in practice and know what he is and isn't capable of. His lack of touches is a direct result of him having absolutely no post game, he doesn't even have the earlier steps of one.

Let's be all the way honest here, Drummond has been a garbage man his entire career too. Sure, on the odd occasion he can create his own basket, yet the majority of his points come from favorable matchups, PNR action and offensive rebounds - the same as DeAndre.

70% of DeAndre's offense is assisted, 58% of Dre's is assisted, you have yet to address that glaring difference. DeAndre is nothing but a garbage man, he cannot score for himself even in the slightest bit, where as we see the development of a post game with Drummond. I have never painted Drummond out to being a beast in the post, just that he's far more proficient at it than DeAndre who at the same age was coming off the bench.

This doesn't make much sense. If they're both putting up similar numbers (DeAndre actually put up better #s when given a offensive load similar to Drummond - when BG was out), how aren't they comparable as players? Yes, I understand that Drummond is better in the post - but that doesn't mean he's automatically the better player - let alone a player on another level.

Their situations are not the same, again one plays with a premier PG, no matter how much he micromanages the game he's still getting DeAndre easier looks than Jennings/Jackson and the rest of the Pistons have gotten Drummond, hence the development of a post game. He can't continue to rely on others to create for him because eventually that can be stopped. You said he can do what Drummond does, but with the way the Pistons are using Drummond that means he would get the ball in the low block, he wouldn't have a PG that can get him the ball whenever and wherever he needs it either.

Can you explain your logic behind this reasoning, and not just the limited shyt Drummond does in the post. Because as far as I see it, if given the same amount of touches:

they put up almost identical base stats
relatively the same completion rate from the FT line
still are limited in creating their own offense
get their majority of points from offensive rebounds and favorable matchups
are competent defensive anchors (DeAndre having the slight edge)

Up to this point - they pretty much have the same impact on the game. I'm not talking about what Drummond may do in the future - I'm talking about right now.

Up to this point, Drummond finished last season strong in the post, your point has been that you could put DeAndre on the Pistons and he'd be able to do the same things as Drummond, but he would need a post game for that to be true. One guy has the bulk of his offense created for him, while the other may not be Al Jefferson in the post he's doing more creating for himself, how then can a dude that has never created offense in his 8 year career be called on to do it and expect similar results?

How can you point out the differences in their individual usage rates, yet turn a blind eye to the 12% difference in assisted offense?

This seems eerily similar to how you'd measure Dwight's impact; sure there were players who were better in the post than Dwight (prior to his back injury), but that didn't mean wasn't comparable or even better than them?

Dwight had a turn and face the rim post game without having a jumper, I was never a believer in him, there's a distinction and numbers don't mean two guys are the same.

There are clips floating around the net. But that's beside the point, because he hardly ever is given the opportunity to work on them in game because there isn't enough touches to go around for him to consistently build rhythm.

You my mans, but I need to see the video, DeAndre in the post is starting to sound like that Hoopz sextape or Detox I've looked for clips of this and they are nowhere to be found, he's never given the opportunity because he's terrible at it, the Clippers have plenty of blowouts where they could easily get the ball into him and work on that part of his game, yet they never do.

i) Because what impact you have on the game isn't all about your post ability.
ii) Drummond shows potential on the odd occasion of what he's capable of - he doesn't do it on a regular basis - as by the fact they have similar #s in relation to their workloads

BLASPHEMY! When you're 6'11" and you can't faceup or shoot threes you better be able to make your mark in the post.

Drummond has shown more in the post in the last year and a half than DeAndre has shown in 8 years in the league.

They're similar players in that they have similar impact on the game = big men who average similar points, who generate their offense from banging the offensive glass, cleaning up in the lane and finishing on PNR opportunities and who're competent defensive anchors.

Just because Drummond may have better moves down low and has shown more ability in the post - doesn't mean they aren't comparable.

See, you're talking about impact when that is never what I was talking about, I was strictly talking about them as players and how they play the game. Are there similarities? Sure, but Drummond has been criticized and labeled as DeAndre as a put down, when there's enough statistical difference between how they get their points to say they're not the same.

Postseason aside, yes they were comparable. Their impact on the game was similar. You could actually argue that Tyreke had a better regular season than Beal did. The talking points surrounding both players last season were that neither were gonna amount to shyt.

Surely you could've come up with a better comparison to emphasize your point.

Who said Beal would never amount to shyt, I want their addresses so I can go spit in their faces personally. Beal and Evans are nothing alike, you're talking about impact and I'm talking about playing style.

Drummond was only scoring in the post on the odd occasion - most of his points were from offensive rebounds, PNR to the rim opportunities and defensive breakdowns. You're making it seem as if he was the go-to man for the Pistons. He clearly wasn't. He's not a threat down below, yet.

The odd occassion is more than zero, we're comparing something to nothing here. DeAndre doesn't score in the post at all, like I'd venture a guess that his post ups last year were under 20.

Yeah, at a terribly inefficient rate. He isn't asked to create for himself regularly. If you were to give DeAndre the same touches in the post that Drummond gets - there wouldn't be that much difference between their completion rates. Drummond has had 18 post up opportunities this season - yet has only completed three of them. I'm sure DeAndre could replicate that, sure it wouldn't be pretty and the display of counter moves would be minimal, but he'd get the job done in similar fashion.

How exactly can you say the results wouldn't be much different when DeAndre has basically never posted up, again the odd occasion is more than zero.

From 2010-2015 DeAndre Jordan has made a grand total of 71 hook shots, last season Andre made 82 of them. It's mote than just getting touches, he has no feel for the post, and while Dre needs to improve at it he's at least been doing it enough to warrant some kind of faith in the potential of him there, while Jordan has never shown anything on the block.

I can post gifs of him all day in the post, there are no numbers to back up the idea Jordan can play in the post and no visual evidence of it either. There's a gang of Dre in the post clips on Youtube, at least show me some flashes of DeAndre because there's no stats for him down there.

Because from what I've seen in the past, he isn't as bad as most make him out to be. Not only that but Rivers doesn't bother to explore any alternative regularly enough for him to showcase what he's capable of. CP never dumps the ball down to him on the block either.

Because there isn't a large enough sample size worthy of bringing to the table that would actually be indicative of his ability, because he doesn't enough touches.

The only season where he's actually been giving freedom (and I use that term loosely) to create for himself was in 2013 - where he had 60 hook shots at a 56% completion rate - which is an above average hook shot to total shot ratio.

DeAndre - 12% of total shots were hooks in 2013 at 56% (on 41 post ups)
Drummond - 19% of total shots were in hooks in 2015 at 42% (on 113 post ups)

Now factor in he can complete at a competent rate, with an efficiency adjustment - he could take on 100 post up opportunities if he was actually given the ball more frequently. Which is part of the reason why if he went to Dallas, you would see him have more of a role on offense, instead of where he is now - Paul using him simply around the rim to inflate his assists, pushing the tempo and on dribble drives.

Nah blood, he is that bad on the post, it's because he has zero feel for the low block, you want to talk about Dre, but I've seen big Drum hit people with counters and some pretty advanced moves, his touch around the rim needs to get better. He'll often make the correct move, but blow the finish, where as I don't see any kind of moveset from DeAndre, and that clip of him taking hookshots from a few weeks ago was just ugly as sin.

Also, those hook shot numbers, you're basically discounting the Clippers being a superior team vs the mess that was the Pistons

Can you imagine how many [little] opportunities Drummond would get if he were in DeAndre's place?

They'd run the occasional post up for Big Drum

Because the Clippers run a completely different offense to those late 00s Boston teams; playing at a faster pace with more PNR action. All the roll to the rim opportunities pretty much take up his designed touches. It also doesn't help that his PG micromanages all his plays.

I'm sure Carlisle would've given him regular touches on the block, probably not to a "focal point of an offense" scale as Parsons would be running the show but we'd certainly get a better picture of his ability than we do now.

If he were better in the post they'd utilize him there at times They would have sets where getting him the ball in the post was an option, yet it never is.

Because whatever difference there is in their post ability, doesn't outweigh all their other similarities. Again, Drummond rarely creates his own offense in the post, up to this point of his career. Your argument would make sense if he was posting up regularly and completing at a rate that would place him on a tier above, but he clearly doesn't.

If we were to split hairs, Drummond is the better player, yet that doesn't mean they aren't comparable - that doesn't mean the impact they have on the court isn't similar, because it is.

I never said anything about impact, that has been your point, mine has always been that DeAndre doesn't have a post game in any sense, and like someone else pointed out saying they are the same player is a lazy comparison. DeAndre is more Tyson Chandler than he is Drummond, Drummond is clearly trying to be more like Dwight/Jefferson guys who get the ball in the post.

DeAndre's usage rate while BG was out was 16.5 - compared to Drummond's 23.1.

Not only that but are you forgetting that BG and CP weren't the only players who had higher usage rates than DeAndre?

During that period, Crawford, Paul, Reddikk, Rivers and Hawes all had higher usage rates - that's FIVE players. Drummond only had ONE player in Jackson who had a higher usage rate (he was basically equal with Monroe) over that end quarter of the season.

He was still playing with one of the best PGs in the league

Imagine Drummond with CP3, Reddikk & Crawford

That's because those stats are from the two games this season. Not last season

Because Drummond doesn't have to play with i) a PG who micromanages his possessions ii) play in an offense with limited touches iii) primarily used for his jumping ability. Drummond wouldn't get the same opportunities he's had in Detroit to create for himself had he been in DeAndre's place, since he was drafted. Not to mention Drummond has the benefit of developing under SVG, where DJ is stuck with Doc.

I'm sure if SVG had DeAndre instead - he'd soon work out what kind of post load he could handle, while utilizing his skillset properly - not have him just throwing down lobs.

Their offense can't handle another post up player. They play too fast and there's not enough spacing - they aren't the Grizzlies - which is why more touches for DeAndre would be harmful to their offense because it would mean less 3-pt opportunities (given the fact that BG and CP wouldn't cut down their possession counts).

If you were to take into account every single thing they did on the court (cue defensive roles), their percentages/production in relation to usage/touches - you would see that they have comparable influence/impact on the game.

I know those numbers are from this season, give me a litttle credit, the disrespect breh

What skillset? DeAndre has always been crude on offense, while Drummond can be clumsy this big muthafukka was playing on the perimeter in HS, which is part of the reason why he has to learn how to play in the post, yet has solid feet and good hands.

I just don't see it with DeAndre at all, there's never been a time I've watched him play and think he can do anything on offense without someone else first creating for him. We'll never agree on this, especially with Drummond possibly improving even more in the post, at that point I'll just become belligerent and site the scriptures of the post and nothing else.

 

[WOAHMYGOODNESS]

That lets you know drummond a baller
Got gil scott and malta arguing about him
Stan van dyke got drumgawd in the conversation

 

[954UAlreadyknow]

You been watching Det this year? They're posting him up a lot more. He's got a decent baby hook. Pick n' roll always gonna be his bread and butter but SVG is doing a nice job of turning him into a poor man's prime-Dwight (which is not an insult.)

hes playing great but hes been terrible posting up

 

[wire28]

these nikkas too little look at 56 seconds, keep doing that dre

I disagree with this, cause his body control in the post is. I love Drum and he is one if the best C in the game, but since last year since he gets a lot of post ups, he is just not very good when he has to create for himself. He is shooting a horrible % for a nikka who takes no shyts further than 5ft from the basket. I don't see him ever becoming a great scorer, but he is already a game changer with everything else he does.

I'D rather him work on a 10 ft jumpshot than forcing him to post up. Bigs RARELY become better back to basket scorers, but it's easy to add a face up jumper.

When I see how great Towns looks in the post and just how bad Drum looks at tines, I don't want Detroit to waste posessions trying to force that ya dig. He can get 15 and 15 every night without the constant post ups. We got a deep ass team this year

he cant shoot free throws (but is getting better) and you want him to develop a jumper over post moves

he is getting better in the post, in our second game vs the jazz he started using his body and last year there were multiple games where he was dropping that jump hook. even against chicago i know he had a few that rimmed out. unless you are just naturally born as a GOAT you are going to have to work to be great. he is 22, give him time to work on his game

edit: you NEED him to develop shyt like this at 48 seconds, not a jump shot

I can post gifs of him all day in the post

edit: i see you posted the same move but different game in that gif there was some thread last year with some good youtube videos of his post moves from you probably made it iono

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

We were talking about the usage rates of their teammates, which you mentioned in an earlier post and I continued thereafter, I was clearly talking about his teammates and even said it prior to that bolded out text. How is he supposed to score if he doesn't get the touches? Isn't that kind of the point, they don't give him the ball because he can't do it, they see him in practice and know what he is and isn't capable of. His lack of touches is a direct result of him having absolutely no post game, he doesn't even have the earlier steps of one.

It's not as simple as that.

They have one of the best offenses because of their BG/CP dynamic/in-out to Reddikk to stretch the floor. If they opt to give DeAndre regular touches, their main advantage (playing at a fast pace to create mayhem and indecision in the opposition's defense) would evaporate because they'd also need to give BG his fare share of possessions on the block too. They can't afford to bog down their sets, else they'd turn into Memphis. Does DeAndre have a skillset to be a go-to scorer down low? Of course not. But his [lack of a] role on offense is more symptomaniac to the strengths of their personnel, which doesn't mean he's void of scoring on the block, it just means the ball is better off in the hands of two of the best offensive players in the game.

70% of DeAndre's offense is assisted, 58% of Dre's is assisted, you have yet to address that glaring difference. DeAndre is nothing but a garbage man, he cannot score for himself even in the slightest bit, where as we see the development of a post game with Drummond. I have never painted Drummond out to being a beast in the post, just that he's far more proficient at it than DeAndre who at the same age was coming off the bench..

Again, this has more to do with BG and CP controlling the team's possessions. They were responsible for assisting on 62% of the team's total points - this is even before we factor in DeAndre being part of 10+ of the most played lineups with at least two of: Griffin, Paul, Reddikk and Crawford (all players who had considerably higher usage rates). Drummond in that offense would have around 65% of his offense assisted simply for the fact the Clippers wouldn't stray away from the strengths of their team and none of the main ball handlers (CP, BG and Crawford) would taper their time of possession with ball in hand.

Drummond would be a garbage man if he was in LA. It's as simple as that. Sure, maybe he'd grow into more of a player. But up to this point of his career, he'd be on clean up duty.

Their situations are not the same, again one plays with a premier PG, no matter how much he micromanages the game he's still getting DeAndre easier looks than Jennings/Jackson and the rest of the Pistons have gotten Drummond, hence the development of a post game. He can't continue to rely on others to create for him because eventually that can be stopped. You said he can do what Drummond does, but with the way the Pistons are using Drummond that means he would get the ball in the low block, he wouldn't have a PG that can get him the ball whenever and wherever he needs it either.

That only adds to my argument, that because CP is controlling the tempo and who gets the ball when and where, that DeAndre can't create for himself as often as Drummond can. He could only do what Drummond does in the sense that he can create.complete for himself at relatively the same rate, because Drummond is still inefficient and raw. Yes he may have more counter moves and a more fluid hook shot, but he's still too inconsistent and often has trouble finishing around the rim.

Drummond gets the ball on the low block, but he still can't do shyt with it (I use that term loosely). He wouldn't get those opportunities if he played in LA. It's not really up for debate. He'd be catching lobs, given the ball on mismatches on PNR actions and pounding the offensive glass - similar to what DeAndre's role is.

Up to this point, Drummond finished last season strong in the post, your point has been that you could put DeAndre on the Pistons and he'd be able to do the same things as Drummond, but he would need a post game for that to be true. One guy has the bulk of his offense created for him, while the other may not be Al Jefferson in the post he's doing more creating for himself, how then can a dude that has never created offense in his 8 year career be called on to do it and expect similar results?.

Simply because Drummond's completion rate from post ups is inefficient to the point that DeAndre wouldn't need to do much in order to have a similar rate. He wouldn't show the flash or movements that Drummond sometimes shows, but he'd still be able to generate points for himself. He had 60 hook shots in 2013 at a 56% rate - I'm sure if you gave him the opportunity to double that, over the course of a season he'd improve and with the efficency adjustment he'd hit at a similar rate to Drummond.

How can you point out the differences in their individual usage rates, yet turn a blind eye to the 12% difference in assisted offense?

How can you turn a blind eye to the fact that if DeAndre was on the Pistons and Drummond on the Clippers, that Drummond would be the one who would have a higher % of his points assisted - simply, again for how the Clippers personnel and offense is placed.

You my mans, but I need to see the video, DeAndre in the post is starting to sound like that Hoopz sextape or Detox I've looked for clips of this and they are nowhere to be found, he's never given the opportunity because he's terrible at it, the Clippers have plenty of blowouts where they could easily get the ball into him and work on that part of his game, yet they never do..

There was a few clips on YT a while ago (I've tried looking for them again) that have shown his footwork down below. Most of the tape on him is all dunks - because that's what draws viewers.

BLASPHEMY! When you're 6'11" and you can't faceup or shoot threes you better be able to make your mark in the post.

And what about all the aspects where you can have an impact on the game?

This has more to do with Drummond not having a good of a post game than it is about DeAndre's lack of a post game. They're still both essentially garbage men type players. Drummond hasn't shown on a consistent basis he's anything more, at this point of his career.

Drummond has shown more in the post in the last year and a half than DeAndre has shown in 8 years in the league.

He has, but that's because he's been given more opportunity to do so. Prior to last season, DeAndre actually had the higher hook shot to completion rate out of the two players.

See, you're talking about impact when that is never what I was talking about, I was strictly talking about them as players and how they play the game. Are there similarities? Sure, but Drummond has been criticized and labeled as DeAndre as a put down, when there's enough statistical difference between how they get their points to say they're not the same..

Well then we've both been arguing into a blackhole.

If they have similar impact on the game, how exactly aren't they similar players? I mean, yes of course Drummond has the better post game (albeit marginal), but that alone doesn't mean he's a player that DeAndre can't be compared to. There's A LOT more going on in the game than the limited post-scoring that Drummond has shown up to this point of his career. A LOT more. That's how they're comparable players.

Who said Beal would never amount to shyt, I want their addresses so I can go spit in their faces personally. Beal and Evans are nothing alike, you're talking about impact and I'm talking about playing style.

Quite a few posters were saying that last season - especially in the latter half of the regular season when he wasn't looking too hot. #Hawkset were doing most of the chirpin might I add. I agree that their playing styles are nothing alike, yet they both were comparable players last season.

The odd occassion is more than zero, we're comparing something to nothing here. DeAndre doesn't score in the post at all, like I'd venture a guess that his post ups last year were under 20.

How exactly can you say the results wouldn't be much different when DeAndre has basically never posted up, again the odd occasion is more than zero..

Because from the limited time he's been given the ball, he hasn't completely useless. I mean if you gave him 18 post up opportunities - I'd put my money on him completing at the same rate as Drummond (who has completed 3 out of 18 so far).

From 2010-2015 DeAndre Jordan has made a grand total of 71 hook shots, last season Andre made 82 of them. It's mote than just getting touches, he has no feel for the post, and while Dre needs to improve at it he's at least been doing it enough to warrant some kind of faith in the potential of him there, while Jordan has never shown anything on the block.

You said it potential (not right now) - there's some foundation there because he's been given the opportunity to do so. DeAndre hasn't, his touches have been too irregular to get a proper projection of what he can do with it. He doesn't have the potential to score in the post like Drummond does, yet right now that's all Drummond has got going for him at the moment. I'll ask again, would we even know what Drummond could potentially do, if he was the "garbage man" for the Clippers?

I can post gifs of him all day in the post, there are no numbers to back up the idea Jordan can play in the post and no visual evidence of it either. There's a gang of Dre in the post clips on Youtube, at least show me some flashes of DeAndre because there's no stats for him down there.

See - reverse team placements dilemma.

Nah blood, he is that bad on the post, it's because he has zero feel for the low block, you want to talk about Dre, but I've seen big Drum hit people with counters and some pretty advanced moves, his touch around the rim needs to get better. He'll often make the correct move, but blow the finish, where as I don't see any kind of moveset from DeAndre, and that clip of him taking hookshots from a few weeks ago was just ugly as sin.

That's because he has a better skillset, I never once debated this. Yet despite him having better moves on the block he's still terribly inefficient and inconsistent - it's still a work in progress before we start talking as if he actually has any definitive impact down low. Put DeAndre on a team where he would get similar post touches and he'd hit at a similar rate - obviously without the flashiness and poise that Drummond SOMETIMES shows.

They'd run the occasional post up for Big Drum

And that's what it would be occasional - the Clippers offense wouldn't function the way it does had they taken the approach Detroit did last season in getting him the ball. He'd have around 65% of his offense created for him.

If he were better in the post they'd utilize him there at times They would have sets where getting him the ball in the post was an option, yet it never is.

That's mostly down to them wanting BG to find rhythm, creating space for 3-pt opportunities and role players fighting for shares.

I never said anything about impact, that has been your point, mine has always been that DeAndre doesn't have a post game in any sense, and like someone else pointed out saying they are the same player is a lazy comparison. DeAndre is more Tyson Chandler than he is Drummond, Drummond is clearly trying to be more like Dwight/Jefferson guys who get the ball in the post.

This is what I've been trying to reiterate to you. He's TRYING to be more like Jefferson, but he isn't there just yet. He's still a 'garbage man' type player - he hasn't separated himself from that group. The moment that he does, is the moment you can claim that he's on another tier to DeAndre. Just because he gets touches in the post doesn't automatically mean he's suddenly a post player - it just means he's either working to be one or there's a lack of other offensive players on the team.

Imagine Drummond with CP3, Reddikk & Crawford.

Imagine you complaining about Dribble Dribble not getting him the ball, Reddikk and Crawford jacking up shots and Blake controlling too much of the possession count, for him to have enough touches down low?

I know those numbers are from this season, give me a litttle credit, the disrespect breh .

What skillset? DeAndre has always been crude on offense, while Drummond can be clumsy this big muthafukka was playing on the perimeter in HS, which is part of the reason why he has to learn how to play in the post, yet has solid feet and good hands.

A skillset where he could generate SOME points, at the same [inefficient] rate for himself like Drummond did last season.

I just don't see it with DeAndre at all, there's never been a time I've watched him play and think he can do anything on offense without someone else first creating for him. We'll never agree on this, especially with Drummond possibly improving even more in the post, at that point I'll just become belligerent and site the scriptures of the post and nothing else.

He's never going to be what Drummond COULD potentially become. But that's all Drummond has to his name at the moment - potential. I don't disagree with you on the projection on what he could become. But he's so far away from that right now, that it'd be disrespectful to actual post players that somehow he's still not essentially in the same impact-pool that DeAndre's currently in.

 

[duckbutta]

The sheer disrespect he received, dudes had the audacity to compare him to DeAndre Jordan, a dude that can't score 12ppg playing with Chris fukkin Paul.

Nah...nah no way people were doing that...

At any rate Drum and Morris twin A...or B ...are really good together...

Jennings about to play just enough to show he healthy and get shipped out for somebody else...hopefully a backup 2 or 3

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Nah...nah no way people were doing that...

Drummond - 18 ppg on 41% shooting (on 13.5 attempts), 16 rpg
DeAndre (without BG) - 15 ppg on 67% shooting (on 7.6 attempts), 18 rpg

That looks comparable to me.