Tribal Outkast
Veteran
If they’re flipping burgers then they’re definitely going to sit in front on computers doing other shyt. You’re right.A.I. coming for those white collar jobs and those independent business owner too.
Massive Unemployment Incoming
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People are out of touch and inhumane. They have no concept of humanity or dignity for their fellow man.
Tribal Outkast
Veteran
They’re really trying to get us to Demolition Man status out here
LordOfTheManor
Pro
We're seeing machines that are able to compete with human intelligence, which I'd argue is new. Historically, technology expanding has created more human jobs, but this isn't necessarily the case now.
Point is..if machines produce more, then you have more product to sell so in total you can make more money if there's a market for your product.The World Bank and I agree that two thirds of jobs in the third-world may disappear due to automation, but you're of course free to disagree: Request Rejected
I'm not fearful of new technology, I'm addressing issues related to AI and automation. I'm happy to discuss positive aspects of new technology, but that's not what the thread is about.
I'm not saying coal mines are the way to go forward, but I do think it's naive to simply tell coal miners to "do better". I actually think that type of rhetoric could lead to social and political unrest, as they might not understand the situation they're in.
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Youth unemployment in Spain, Greece, Portugal says otherwise. Structural unemployment in France says otherwise. The employment crisis in Canada says otherwise. There are too many people available for too few jobs. In those circumstances the least established are losing out - i.e. youth.
So NO. It is not even arguable that 'other replacement jobs are created' all over the 'civilized/advanced' world.
So under full automation what would humans do?
As this video points out this is NOT true in the West. Replacement jobs are not being created and it doesn't only costs low skilled jobs. Not sure where you got that from. India, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania and others attract high value skilled positions.
Downward pressure on wages is negative. (Not to mention social costs but that is not the topic here). Outsourcing without replacement jobs is negative. See numbers in previous video as an example. Isn't the removal of worker pricing power negative?
Not quite. Pricing power of American workers started declining around the 1970's. This has been supplemented by two worker households and credit but guess what. Mom+Pop wages earning is a one shot effect and the credit binge has reached its limits.
Mathematical formula? Mathematical proofs are not always in the form of a formula. They can be in the form of logical argument.
Proof by contradiction: (google)
You suggest that if we outsource 1 million jobs tomorrow, thereby removing 1 million jobs from the locals 1 million equivalent (or better) jobs will be created locally to offset the lost jobs. If that is the case then why is there any unemployment at all?
If the relationship that you suggest holds then each country could outsource their jobs to other countries until the other countries have zero (effective) unemployment and then the opposite could be done in reverse to eliminate unemployment (i.e. a living wage NOT simply 'something to do') everywhere.
Even if we argue that politics gets in the way why can this not be done internally (yes internally) or between allies.
ERGO: the relationship does not hold.
What you are going to say is that there is a significant time delay.. well that's a major negative as that increases unemployment and downward pressure on wages.
I am presuming in all of this that you know what the principle aim of a corporation is.. so I am not going to spell it out
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Further so I have to explain the effect of aggregation to you? it's illustrated in the video - fewer people doing more in extremis is a negative unless the produced goods and services are shared with those that do not contribute to their creation. That's almost self-evident. If you are not essential to the production pipeline you have less pricing power and less pricing power in capitalism means lower income.
As for luddite? I did my post-grad at the #3 technical school globally and my undergrad at a top 5 school in my country - both Ivy League level schools. It's not even my point of specialization but I would wager that I know more about automation (technology) than you.
In the 'full' automation scenario creation of a strong-AI singularity would defacto shift pricing power away from humans.
David_TheMan
Banned
Is the youth employment issue due to technology ? No
The Mystery of Spain’s Perpetual Jobs Problem in spain its cultural and regulation related.
France's ridiculously old-fashioned labour market is killing its economy regulation cause in France
Canada's Unemployment Rate Drops to Lowest in Four Decades Canada has an unemployment rate drop and a job boom so your statement is factually incorrect.
That said I'm interested to know where you are pulling your statements from, post evidence or sourcing. Until then your contention is unsupported.
Full automation in what industry? If you think there will be a day when humans don't work at all, I think you don't know what full automation entails economically, because that isn't what it means. As I said before people have to program and create the AIs that you think will take over and they have to maintain them and set parameters..
Your video would be wrong.
Outsourcing is good for the U.S. economy
No downward pressure on wages isn't a negative, because wage is just another name for price, we wouldn't say downward pressure on prices is negative to the consumer, so same with wage. Outsourcing isn't a negative as studies have shown, so you are simply harping on a debunked xenophobic nativist slogan.
You would be incorrect.
1) Buying power of the US dollar started to fall in the 1920s with the creation of the Federal Reserve and their monetary policy of inflation to finance government expenditures. This has nothing to do with technology or the job market.
2) This is where you whole argument is destroyed, thanks to automation, outsourcing, and efficiency in means of production with processes (think Lean or Six Sigma) the dropping of price of goods has been able to trump the inflation and lowering power of the money supply. Leaving inhibitants of the west with the ability to work less hours, earn more money, and have a higher standard of living in each decade more than the previous.
A look at the hours dropping from 1870 to 2000
If your argument is a logical argument state it, if its mathmatical it would be in the form of a proof.
I don't suggest it, its been proven in reality, read link above for just one example, or look at US economic explosion in its industrialization waves such as move from agriculture to manufacturing, and the optimization in manufacturing waves that occured of the history.
Easy unemployment doesn't occur simply because of technological innovation and outsourcing.
Wrong because again, unemployment isn't solely caused by technology and outsourcing.
Why can what not be done internally? This question makes no sense logically. And again there is more to unemployment than technology and outsourcing.
You have political policies/regulation that force people out the market, you have individuals who make poor decisions or are unlucky in making investments in education, you have mental illness in some people that make them unemployable, you have mismatch of skills with physical ability and vice versa, and cultural beliefs than can contribute to unemployment. These are just a few examples.
Your argument was built off an incorrect premise and with questionable assumptions as I've previously noted in this post.
I haven't said that.
YEs the principle aim of a corporation is to generate a profit for the owners.
Your post was again filled with a lot of statements with no support, and poor logic applied to faulty premises built on strawmen.[/quote][/quote]
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[/quote][/QUOTE]Is the youth employment issue due to technology ? No
The Mystery of Spain’s Perpetual Jobs Problem in spain its cultural and regulation related.
France's ridiculously old-fashioned labour market is killing its economy regulation cause in France
Canada's Unemployment Rate Drops to Lowest in Four Decades Canada has an unemployment rate drop and a job boom so your statement is factually incorrect.
That said I'm interested to know where you are pulling your statements from, post evidence or sourcing. Until then your contention is unsupported.
Full automation in what industry? If you think there will be a day when humans don't work at all, I think you don't know what full automation entails economically, because that isn't what it means. As I said before people have to program and create the AIs that you think will take over and they have to maintain them and set parameters..
Your video would be wrong.
Outsourcing is good for the U.S. economy
No downward pressure on wages isn't a negative, because wage is just another name for price, we wouldn't say downward pressure on prices is negative to the consumer, so same with wage. Outsourcing isn't a negative as studies have shown, so you are simply harping on a debunked xenophobic nativist slogan.
You would be incorrect.
1) Buying power of the US dollar started to fall in the 1920s with the creation of the Federal Reserve and their monetary policy of inflation to finance government expenditures. This has nothing to do with technology or the job market.
2) This is where you whole argument is destroyed, thanks to automation, outsourcing, and efficiency in means of production with processes (think Lean or Six Sigma) the dropping of price of goods has been able to trump the inflation and lowering power of the money supply. Leaving inhibitants of the west with the ability to work less hours, earn more money, and have a higher standard of living in each decade more than the previous.
A look at the hours dropping from 1870 to 2000
If your argument is a logical argument state it, if its mathmatical it would be in the form of a proof.
I don't suggest it, its been proven in reality, read link above for just one example, or look at US economic explosion in its industrialization waves such as move from agriculture to manufacturing, and the optimization in manufacturing waves that occured of the history.
Easy unemployment doesn't occur simply because of technological innovation and outsourcing.
Wrong because again, unemployment isn't solely caused by technology and outsourcing.
Why can what not be done internally? This question makes no sense logically. And again there is more to unemployment than technology and outsourcing.
You have political policies/regulation that force people out the market, you have individuals who make poor decisions or are unlucky in making investments in education, you have mental illness in some people that make them unemployable, you have mismatch of skills with physical ability and vice versa, and cultural beliefs than can contribute to unemployment. These are just a few examples.
Your argument was built off an incorrect premise and with questionable assumptions as I've previously noted in this post.
I haven't said that.
YEs the principle aim of a corporation is to generate a profit for the owners.
Your post was again filled with a lot of statements with no support, and poor logic applied to faulty premises built on strawmen.
I see...
Let''s start with one thing at a time:
Why can't outsourcing be used to combat unemployment? (using the method that I stated above which is a direct implication of what you have posted)
A concise comprehensive statement would be appreciated.
David_TheMan
Banned
Fewer people doing more has never been proven in reality to be a negative in society. That is what the whole industrialization age proved. So again your premises if demonstrably incorrect.
Yes I know and most know that lower value/skilled workers are less essential, therefor they command lower wages, and have less income than those with a skill in demand. You aren't stating anything new.
Yes luddite, there are plenty neo-luddites who work in the tech field. Doesn't mean you are uneducated, just that you hold a outdated proven wrong mindset with regard to the dangers of technological advancement on job creation.
Who creates the AI? who manages the algorithms that it uses to make decisions? Who makes the program that makes the program that allows the AI to refine ? LOL.
As for shifting pay, so what if it drops pay, the money saved by the corporation in implementing it will drop the price of the good being provided while granting them the ability to maintain their profit margins.
Like I said the needless panic you are doing is all old hat.
David_TheMan
Banned
Already answered your outsourcing question. Outsourcing isn't the sole cause in unemployment. You are trying to ascribe too much weight to it in your unemployment argument when there are simply too many variables, which makes your example usless.
IF you couldn't understand what I wrote before when I went more into depth, there is no point in me repeating it again for you. I would suggst you read again, and if you don't understand what I wrote ask a direct question for clarification.
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Jumbled response so we will break it down one step at a time. See my previous post ^
David_TheMan
Banned
No we aren't seeing machines compete with human intelligence at all.
We see machines able to work in fixed environments and limited parametrs function fasters and more directed than before, but in terms of general human intelligence AI is nowhere close to what the human brain does.
Machines always produce more than people, even simple machines, again this isn't new. You confuse the ability to produce quicker with a market demand for more of the product. That is a terrible mistake on your end. If the demand is the same, me producing it quicker just means I am ableto produce it quicker and lower my cost and make money at a higher margin, doesn't mean I will suddenly make more, its the market that determines what you produce not your technical capability to do so.
The World Bank doesn't write the rules of economics. The fact is this, if there is no benefit, economically, in eating the cost to make the switch to automation over continuing on with no automation or in the status quo, the status quo will be maintained. In the case that the price of automation falls in those undeveloped nations where it makes financial sense to do so it will happen, until it does it won't. This is axiomatic.
Everything you have said is fearful of new technology, its only an issue if you are concerned or fearful of it. This thread is about a video trying to make a argument aobut the dangers of new technology, I"m simply disagreeing with its contention. I've never told you, you should say anything positive or negative about new technology either. So I don't understand why you would try to act like I implied you did.
Its not naive to tell low skill workers that your industry is dying, learn something new or be jobless. No different than telling a company that made consumer grade film cameras that they need to adapt or be out of business, or companies that made horse and buggy carriages that they need to get out and find a new skill or they'll be jobless. Its reality. I don't see how it would lead to social or political unrest unless you had another entity involved offering those without jobs the ability to steal from those who are more productive, but thats another discussion.
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Already answered your outsourcing question. Outsourcing isn't the sole cause in unemployment. You are trying to ascribe too much weight to it in your unemployment argument when there are simply too many variables, which makes your example usless.
IF you couldn't understand what I wrote before when I went more into depth, there is no point in me repeating it again for you. I would suggst you read again, and if you don't understand what I wrote ask a direct question for clarification.[/QUOTE]
And there you have it. Math(s) again. You have the direction of implication wrong and with that I am gone. The bolded part in your post is YOUR strawman.
It doesn't matter what the cause is. The question is about combating. The order of the implication in my statement '=>' (single and double implication arrow?) is the opposite of what you are basing your argument on.
AGAIN: For the purposes of THIS question it doesn't matter what the cause is. I.E. you can combat a symptom without KNOWING the cause and the QUESTION was 'can outsourcing be used to combat unemployment (of all kinds) as per the implication of you saying 1 million jobs outsourced leads to at least 1 million (similar) additional jobs in total'.
Coli strikes again.... the gaps in your education are showing. It would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that broader society lumps people like you together with people like me.
#MNIA
IF you couldn't understand what I wrote before when I went more into depth, there is no point in me repeating it again for you. I would suggst you read again, and if you don't understand what I wrote ask a direct question for clarification.[/QUOTE]
And there you have it. Math(s) again. You have the direction of implication wrong and with that I am gone. The bolded part in your post is YOUR strawman.
It doesn't matter what the cause is. The question is about combating. The order of the implication in my statement '=>' (single and double implication arrow?) is the opposite of what you are basing your argument on.
AGAIN: For the purposes of THIS question it doesn't matter what the cause is. I.E. you can combat a symptom without KNOWING the cause and the QUESTION was 'can outsourcing be used to combat unemployment (of all kinds) as per the implication of you saying 1 million jobs outsourced leads to at least 1 million (similar) additional jobs in total'.
Coli strikes again.... the gaps in your education are showing. It would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that broader society lumps people like you together with people like me.
#MNIA
David_TheMan
Banned
Not jumbled at all, responded to your post line by line.
If you don't understand simply state what you don't understand and we'll move from there. If not just be honest and say we disagree fundamentally on baseline principles.
