Max Kellerman: Lebron is a better offensive player than Kevin Durant

[Hacksaw Jim Thuggin]

im not even going to read this thread i know its foolishness

is lebron's game as pretty as kd's? nah

but its more efficient....and he scores just as much....

anything else is bullshyt

 

[Professor Emeritus]

When KD was going up against the Clippers, Spurs, Mavericks, Grizzlies, et al. in the West, who was LeBron facing in the East?

Once he's retired and the dust has finally settled, people are really going to have sit back and reflect on his career objectively, look at some of the names on these teams he was racking up these wins and "dominant all-time playoff performances" against ('11 76er, '13 Bucks, '14 Hornets, etc.) and really have a serious discussion about whether his run in the East was truly that impressive.

Even some of the "legit" competition he faced during 8-year run looks real shaky ('11 Bulls, '13 Pacers, '14 Nets, '15 Hawks) when comparing them with the teams that KD faced in the West at the same time.

You can always tell the failing arguments by how bad the receipts are.

Here are the actual best teams that LeBron has beat in his postseason career (shortened seasons pro-rated out), with the teams' scoring defense ranking:

'15 Bulls: 50 wins, #9 defense
'13 Pacers: 50 wins, #2 defense
'12 Celtics: 50 wins, #2 defense
'17 Raptors: 51 wins, #8 defense
'12 Pacers: 52 wins, #10 defense
'17 Celtics: 53 wins, #15 defense
'07 Pistons: 53 wins, #2 defense
'18 Celtics: 55 wins, #20 defense
'16 Raptors: 56 wins, #3 defense
'14 Pacers: 56 wins, #2 defense
'11 Celtics: 56 wins, #1 defense
'13 Spurs: 58 wins, #12 defense
'18 Raptors: 59 wins, #4 defense
'15 Hawks: 60 wins, #5 defense
'12 Thunder: 61 wins, #17 defense
'11 Bulls: 62 wins, #2 defense
'16 Warriors: 73 wins, #19 defense

17 teams with at least 50 wins, and 10 of those with at least 55 wins. And MOST of the teams listed had top-5 defenses. Worth noting that 5 of those teams had starting lineups that had won a ring before.



And here are the best teams that Durant beat before he joined a 73-win team that could win titles without him (shortened seasons pro-rated out):

'11 Nuggets: 50 wins, #21 defense
'14 Grizzlies: 50 wins, #3 defense
'12 Lakers: 51 wins, #15 defense
'14 Clippers: 57 wins, #14 defense
'12 Spurs: 62 wins, #16 defense
'16 Spurs: 67 wins, #1 defense

Only 6 teams with at least 50 wins, and only 3 of those have at least 55 wins, and only 2 first-rate defenses.

It's not even close. LeBron has beaten far more elite teams with far more top defenses. Overall, LeBron faced 26 top-10 defenses in the playoffs and beat 24 of them. Pre-Warriors Durant had only faced 7 top-10 defenses....and only beat 2 of them.

This is a legit question that never gets answered. Those teams in the West are whole different breed than the '11 Bulls, '13 Pacers, '15 Hawks, '18 Celtics. Once he retires his opposition in the East during his eight-year run is going to come under some serious scrutiny.

Total bullshyt. We've gone over the west and east teams before. If you switched the East Champs and the West Champs, the same teams would come out in the end just about every year.

Better than any LeBron Finals moment.

Only a casual would say that a shot in Game 3 with a 2-0 lead in a series everyone knew was already over is a bigger moment than a chasedown block in a tied Game 7.

And LeBron has Game 7 moments for miles:

I can name 20 iconic LeBron playoff games before you can name 5 such KD games, and most of KD's games would have come when he was already a heavy favorite and wasn't even the focus of the defense.

 

[ELESDEE616]

That's becuz KD would have found a way to make it work with Wade, Rose, and Thomas.

You're a fakkit shut up

 

[KingJay]

better offensive player = yes

better scorer = no

This. Although I don't think the gap as a scorer is as far as people might want to make it out to be even

I know their roles were totally different, but let's not forget that Bron averaged 34ppg on 62%TS this playoffs and dropped 51 in game 1 against GSW
If he wasn't busy averaging 9apg and trying to get more buckets that PPG would be even higher

KD unquestionably more skilled, but LeBron's overwhelming physical gifts and ability to use them covers a lot of that ground KD is much more prone to a bad scoring night than LeBron is because LeBron can always take you to the rim, post up, run in transition, etc. to get 30+ points.

 

[TheNig]

You can always tell the failing arguments by how bad the receipts are.

Here are the actual best teams that LeBron has beat in his postseason career (shortened seasons pro-rated out), with the teams' scoring defense ranking:

'15 Bulls: 50 wins, #9 defense
'13 Pacers: 50 wins, #2 defense
'12 Celtics: 50 wins, #2 defense
'17 Raptors: 51 wins, #8 defense
'12 Pacers: 52 wins, #10 defense
'17 Celtics: 53 wins, #15 defense
'07 Pistons: 53 wins, #2 defense
'18 Celtics: 55 wins, #20 defense
'16 Raptors: 56 wins, #3 defense
'14 Pacers: 56 wins, #2 defense
'11 Celtics: 56 wins, #1 defense
'13 Spurs: 58 wins, #12 defense
'18 Raptors: 59 wins, #4 defense
'15 Hawks: 60 wins, #5 defense
'12 Thunder: 61 wins, #17 defense
'11 Bulls: 62 wins, #2 defense
'16 Warriors: 73 wins, #19 defense

17 teams with at least 50 wins, and 10 of those with at least 55 wins. And MOST of the teams listed had top-5 defenses. Worth noting that 5 of those teams had starting lineups that had won a ring before.



And here are the best teams that Durant beat before he joined a 73-win team that could win titles without him (shortened seasons pro-rated out):

'11 Nuggets: 50 wins, #21 defense
'14 Grizzlies: 50 wins, #3 defense
'12 Lakers: 51 wins, #15 defense
'14 Clippers: 57 wins, #14 defense
'12 Spurs: 62 wins, #16 defense
'16 Spurs: 67 wins, #1 defense

Only 6 teams with at least 50 wins, and only 3 of those have at least 55 wins, and only 2 first-rate defenses.

It's not even close. LeBron has beaten far more elite teams with far more top defenses. Overall, LeBron faced 26 top-10 defenses in the playoffs and beat 24 of them. Pre-Warriors Durant had only faced 7 top-10 defenses....and only beat 2 of them.





Total bullshyt. We've gone over the west and east teams before. If you switched the East Champs and the West Champs, the same teams would come out in the end just about every year.





Only a casual would say that a shot in Game 3 with a 2-0 lead in a series everyone knew was already over is a bigger moment than a chasedown block in a tied Game 7.

And LeBron has Game 7 moments for miles:

I can name 20 iconic LeBron playoff games before you can name 5 such KD games, and most of KD's games would have come when he was already a heavy favorite and wasn't even the focus of the defense.

nikkas throw that "casual" shyt out there like nikkas really care.


KD better. Get over it.

 

[Born2BKing]

lebron is a better offensive player easily when you add in passing (offense includes passing)


if we're talking only scoring, durant is a better shooter but lebron scores more eff from the floor not including FT's (durant .539 efg vs lebron .540 efg)



Kevin Durant Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
LeBron James Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

You gonna get some hate for bringing up numbers over the "eye test"

 

[TheNig]

You gonna get some hate for bringing up numbers over the "eye test"

3-5 are numbers too, right?

 

[Shutdown10]

1-on-1 = KD
5-on-5 = LJ

Only when Bron has players that suit his system. You can't put Lebron on any team and expect for him to run his system effectively. If their is not at least two guys who can shoot in that starting five with Lebron, then his system is going to suffer.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

That's becuz KD would have found a way to make it work with Wade, Rose, and Thomas.

KD would have made it work with three all-offense no-defense guards who need the ball in their hands and all finished the season coming off the bench for bad teams?

Reminds me of when he "made it work" by only winning 3 playoff games with Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Kevin Martin, Sefolosha, Fisher, Perkins, and Collison. Shoot 15-48 with 11 turnovers in the last two deciding games brehs.

nikkas throw that "casual" shyt out there like nikkas really care.

KD better. Get over it.

That's your entire argument to those receipts?

NBA GM's, whose careers actually depend on this stuff, have a different take:


2018 GM Survey

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 48%

2. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 21%

3. James Harden, Houston – 14%

4. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City – 7%



Who is the best small forward in the NBA?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 61%

2. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 32%

3. Kawhi Leonard, San Antonio – 7%



Who is the best power forward in the NBA?

1. Anthony Davis, New Orleans – 41%

2. LeBron James, Cleveland – 28%

3. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 17%

4. Karl-Anthony Towns, Minnesota – 7%



Which player is the best passer?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 36%

2. Chris Paul, Houston – 32%

3. James Harden, Houston – 7%

Ricky Rubio, Utah – 7%

John Wall, Washington – 7%



Which player is the best leader?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 43%

2. Chris Paul, Houston – 21%

3. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 14%

4. Mike Conley, Memphis – 7%



Who is the most versatile player in the NBA?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 55%

2. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 14%

Kawhi Leonard, San Antonio – 14%

4. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee – 10%

5. Draymond Green, Golden State – 7%



Which player has the best basketball IQ?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 64%

2. Chris Paul, Houston –14%

3. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 11%



And that was last year. After what LeBron did in the 2018 playoffs it'll probably be even worse this year.

Teams do crazy stuff to adjust to LeBron. Meanwhile, Durant isn't even the main guy teams are adjusting to on his own team. Durant is a better shooter, but LeBron is the far better offensive player because he's more versatile, has a higher bball IQ, is a better passer, and does a better job imposing his will on the game.

3-5 are numbers too, right?

Keep bragging that early exits are better than Finals appearances. And you don't want to be called a casual.

If Durant hadn't joined a 73-win team he'd be 0-11 right now.

 

[Shutdown10]

Better than any LeBron Finals moment.

I remember watching that live. That shot was so cold blooded man!

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Only when Bron has players that suit his system. You can't put Lebron on any team and expect for him to run his system effectively. If their is not at least two guys who can shoot in that starting five with Lebron, then his system is going to suffer.

You're comparing LeBron to a guy whose ONLY titles have come with the greatest pair of shooters in NBA history at his side.


Every lineup that matters has at least two shooters in it. But LeBron has made lineups work with worse shooters than anyone else in the league:

Boobie-Sasha-Gooden-Z
Bibby-Wade-Bosh-Joel Anthony
Chalmers-Wade-Battier-Haslem
Chalmers-Wade-Bosh-Haslem
Chalmers-Wade-Rashard-Bosh
Delly-Shump-TT-Mosgov

Who were the shooters in those lineups? Outside of the last 3 years LeBron has had below-average shooters in the starting lineup compared to most elite teams.

 

[TheNig]

KD would have made it work with three all-offense no-defense guards who need the ball in their hands and all finished the season coming off the bench for bad teams?

Reminds me of when he "made it work" by only winning 3 playoff games with Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Kevin Martin, Sefolosha, Fisher, Perkins, and Collison. Shoot 15-48 with 11 turnovers in the last two deciding games brehs.




That's your entire argument to those receipts?

NBA GM's, whose careers actually depend on this stuff, have a different take:


2018 GM Survey

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 48%

2. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 21%

3. James Harden, Houston – 14%

4. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City – 7%



Who is the best small forward in the NBA?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 61%

2. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 32%

3. Kawhi Leonard, San Antonio – 7%



Who is the best power forward in the NBA?

1. Anthony Davis, New Orleans – 41%

2. LeBron James, Cleveland – 28%

3. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 17%

4. Karl-Anthony Towns, Minnesota – 7%



Which player is the best passer?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 36%

2. Chris Paul, Houston – 32%

3. James Harden, Houston – 7%

Ricky Rubio, Utah – 7%

John Wall, Washington – 7%



Which player is the best leader?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 43%

2. Chris Paul, Houston – 21%

3. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 14%

4. Mike Conley, Memphis – 7%



Who is the most versatile player in the NBA?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 55%

2. Kevin Durant, Golden State – 14%

Kawhi Leonard, San Antonio – 14%

4. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee – 10%

5. Draymond Green, Golden State – 7%



Which player has the best basketball IQ?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 64%

2. Chris Paul, Houston –14%

3. Stephen Curry, Golden State – 11%



And that was last year. After what LeBron did in the 2018 playoffs it'll probably be even worse this year.

Teams do crazy stuff to adjust to LeBron. Meanwhile, Durant isn't even the main guy teams are adjusting to on his own team. Durant is a better shooter, but LeBron is the far better offensive player because he's more versatile, has a higher bball IQ, is a better passer, and does a better job imposing his will on the game.




Keep bragging that early exits are better than Finals appearances. And you don't want to be called a casual.

If Durant hadn't joined a 73-win team he'd be 0-11 right now.

You and Trump cac Prof really got into this really thinking I cared about arguingsome numbers and "facts".

I didn't read most of this shyt becuz I don't care. LeBron has lost more Finals than he's won and you nikkas have to try and defend that shyt and I laugh at it.

That's reason enough for me to get outta bed in the morning.

 

[Born2BKing]

3-5 are numbers too, right?

Sure is.

 

[TheNig]

Sure is.

Just checking

 

[Shutdown10]

You're comparing LeBron to a guy whose ONLY titles have come with the greatest pair of shooters in NBA history at his side.


Every lineup that matters has at least two shooters in it. But LeBron has made lineups work with worse shooters than anyone else in the league:

Boobie-Sasha-Gooden-Z
Bibby-Wade-Bosh-Joel Anthony
Chalmers-Wade-Battier-Haslem
Chalmers-Wade-Bosh-Haslem
Chalmers-Wade-Rashard-Bosh
Delly-Shump-TT-Mosgov

Who were the shooters in those lineups? Outside of the last 3 years LeBron has had below-average shooters in the starting lineup compared to most elite teams.

My bad! I worded that wrong when it came to that Heat team. Although Chalmers had his best 3 point percentage years from 2010 to 2014 shooting between 38 to 40 percent. They also had Allen, Battier, Miller, and Jones getting decent minutes. All those guys got great looks off Bron, Wade and Bosh betting in the game simultaneously. The first year Heat team struggled early on without consistent shooters in the lineup. The Cavs team that featured Dion Waiters struggled because he could not stretch the floor for Bron. Boobie and Sasha were really good three point shooters man. If you look up their percentages, you would see those guys were shooting 38 to 40 perecent from three. Lebron will thrive with players like all the time because it opens up his game.