Merkel calls for Burqa ban in Germany

[88m3]

What about what I wrote? The gist of it is that you don''t get to tell people if religion is or is not oppressive. Then while writing I thought about this type of condescending behavior relevant and made the news this past week hence the edit:

I'll have to catch the clip tomorrow because I'm beat. I'll also reread what you wrote.

I see the knife cutting both way.

 

[MrPentatonic]

The gigantic pendulum swing to the right

The pandering

 

[Frangala]

Yea, we do actually. A lot of oppression has happened under the banner of religion, and continues to. Secularism is one of the most important ideas ever conceived by man and we must maintain it.

You can go both ways. For every religion inspired massacre, I can always point to Mao or Stalin. So the same civilized and freedom loving secularism that obliges Muslim women to remove their clothes in a French beach as if a modestly dressed woman at a beach poses a threat to national security.

 

[Mr swag]

The government forcing women what to wear or face jail time
That freedom

 

[Type Username Here]

You can go both ways. For every religion inspired massacre, I can always point to Mao or Stalin. So the same civilized and freedom loving secularism that obliges Muslim women to remove their clothes in a French beach as if a modestly dressed woman at a beach poses a threat to national security.

You can point to whatever you wish, I was merely pointing out the flaw of your original comment.

I already said above that I am against the government deciding what is appropriate dress. I can hold that view while also simultaneously understanding that the "modestly" dressed issue is centered in cultural repression of women. By the way, this "modest" form of dress is not even agreed upon by all Muslims as necessary and required.

The truth is that a significant portion of these women are most likely wearing these garments out of fear of harm, violence or shunning of the males in their family and communities.

Being tolerant of intolerance is often very dangerous.

Here is Iranian women protesting being forced to wear religious garments and dress:

Women protesting forced hijab days after the Iranian Revolution, 1979

 

[Frangala]

You can point to whatever you wish, I was merely pointing out the flaw of your original comment.

I already said above that I am against the government deciding what is appropriate dress. I can hold that view while also simultaneously understanding that the "modestly" dressed issue is centered in cultural repression of women. By the way, this "modest" form of dress is not even agreed upon by all Muslims as necessary and required.

The truth is that a significant portion of these women are most likely wearing these garments out of fear of harm, violence or shunning of the males in their family and communities.

Being tolerant of intolerance is often very dangerous.

Here is Iranian women protesting being forced to wear religious garments and dress:

Women protesting forced hijab days after the Iranian Revolution, 1979

Why would those women continue on wit a repressive tradition in Western industrialized nations. Why are these women still wearing what they wear when they are out of Iran, Afghanistan or whatever repressive country of origin they come from. Wouldn't they just let loose and do away with the shackles of Islam and Muslim men once they have arrived in London Paris Stockholm or whatever liberal "advanced" secular European metropolitan. Why were some of the strongest voices against the the burka ban women. They are in the West now and not under the nose of the Taliban why are they so hard pressed to retain some of their religious traditions?

 

[Trece]

She is trying to win re-election but this is a little too obvious

 

[Saiyajin]

Yea, we do actually. A lot of oppression has happened under the banner of religion, and continues to. Secularism is one of the most important ideas ever conceived by man and we must maintain it.

WW1 and WW2 were both secular conflicts.

 

[Type Username Here]

WW1 and WW2 were both secular conflicts.

We're they inspired by Secularism?

I'm not saying there isn't oppression or violence done in the name of other things, all I am refuting is that religious ideology is beyond criticism, which was Frangala's original contention. Nazi ideology, Stalinism and Maoism were all refuted, criticized, shunned and replaced in some cases.

Frangala was arguing that religion is beyond criticism or disagreement. It isn't.

 

[Type Username Here]

Why would those women continue on wit a repressive tradition in Western industrialized nations. Why are these women still wearing what they wear when they are out of Iran, Afghanistan or whatever repressive country of origin they come from. Wouldn't they just let loose and do away with the shackles of Islam and Muslim men once they have arrived in London Paris Stockholm or whatever liberal "advanced" secular European metropolitan. Why were some of the strongest voices against the the burka ban women. They are in the West now and not under the nose of the Taliban why are they so hard pressed to retain some of their religious traditions?

I told you: they are often in fear of retribution or shunning of males within their own community. This isn't just an Islamic thing, look at Orthodox or Amish communities as well. There is severe backlash implied.

Why were those Iranian women protesting though? I'll tell you why: it's subjective clothing laws that is not actually mandated in Islam. Muslims from across they world interpretate this differently and if isn't set in stone, no matter what you say.

I told you above: I am against the government telling people what is appropriate dress. I am also against religion telling people what is appropriate dress. How can you be for one and against the other?

 

[Type Username Here]

I also take issue with the argument that because women continue to wear these things, and in some cases advocate them, that we should willingly accept it without critical scrutiny.

Female genital mutilation often continues in these communities, even when these groups reach Europe. Should we just accept this barbaric practice because certain cultures advocate it, defend it and practice it? Where is the line drawn?

How much intolerance should we accept in the name of being tolerant?

 

[Consigliere]

I can't even enter a store with a ski mask or hoodie over my head. I see no problem with banning burqas in public spaces.

 

[the cac mamba]

I personally despise it and find it absurd, but I don't see how the government has the right to dictate clothing styles outside of the Military and other government based uniforms. This is strictly from an American view of our laws, I know Europe is different.

That being said, I also think people have the right to request those wearing it to unveil for safety and identification reasons. If I'm doing a business transaction with someone, I should be able to identify who it is I am engaging with.

Finally, from a moral stand point, this type of clothing is meant for control and subjugation of women by men. There are often threats of violence or harm behind wearing these articles of clothing. This is intolerant and should not be accepted by society, even if we have to accept it by law.

let me ask you this: is it a FACT that muslims agree to unveil for the police?

i mean i thought that the whole purpose of this bullshyt was so 'no other man sees them' or whatever. isnt a cop seeing them if he asks?

i say as long as they agree to take it off when asked, let them walk around in public with it but i could see resistance to that from muslims, since it kinda defeats the purpose. @Brosef_K.O.N.Y. said 'of course theyd all agree to take it off', frankly i think thats bullshyt

 

[the cac mamba]

I can't even enter a store with a ski mask or hoodie over my head. I see no problem with banning burqas in public spaces.

whats to stop a man from putting on a burqa and robbing a store? i wouldnt want ANYONE entering my store in some shyt like that hell, i'd prolly ban it in my store. same as a ski mask. if my camera cant identify you to the police, get the fukk out stay on the sidewalk or take it off first

 

[bsmooth]

In western countries these laws do nothing but further isolate people that can gain the most from societal interaction from being engaged in any way with their communities. Instead of these women, and by proxy their children, being exposed to the larger culture they will simply stop going out, be less likely to have their children attend public school and further feelings of ostracization

This is a petty issue used to pathetically pander to prejudice, I'd bet there are less than 50 actual burqas in the country and no more than a couple hundred niqabs.