NBA Defenses - Changing the Game

[mbewane]

When I say "handchecking" I mean the handchecking that went on even before the player actually got the ball. Of course once Jordan actually gets the ball he's more likely to beat whoever is in front of him, but it was easier to stop players from actually getting the ball before. I don't believe it's only one rule, the touch fouls and the flopping being called now play just as much a role as the zone imo.

All in all, what I see is that most players are better shooters, but have less "moves" because the game is more about passing the ball around than creating off the dribble. I also see worse on-the-ball defenders because well the zone is there to cover that up. And since the zone, big men can't really go to work Inside, so they shoot jump shots even more, hence no more true centers (teh fact that they can hardly jump without being called for a foul also comes into play). So it's a passing and jump-shooting league. I personaly hate the zone because I love watching good individual defense and real help defense (meaning leaving your man just at the right moment). AI's right, it does look like college.

I tend to agree that the zone is one huge change to the game with many ramifications, but calling the touch fouls and allowing flopping plays a huge role too. In today's league MJ's shot over Russell could be called an offensive foul imo.

 

[triplehate]

It affects the pick and roll as well now that I think about it. If you got Stockton and Malone literally all alone on one side of the court with the opposing rim protector standing out by 3 point line...Malone goes in unopposed for a dunk or an and 1 as you scramble over

 

[mbewane]

It affects the pick and roll as well now that I think about it. If you got Stockton and Malone literally all alone on one side of the court with the opposing rim protector standing out by 3 point line...Malone goes in unopposed for a dunk or an and 1 as you scramble over

That sounds like a lot of what's happening today imo, since big men now have a three point shot the opposing rim protector also has to stand out by the 3 point line...the lane was more clogged up before than it is now, zone or not, because centers and PFs mostly actually played in the paint.

 

[BillBanneker]

Yes because I am better than every perimeter defender in the history of the NBA? That's your argument against handchecking...that a nikka off the street can't stop Kobe?

No need to respond to the prime/zone stuff because I already did. So how does his shooting numbers being similar pre and post zone prove that zone inhibits players? We saw him and Kobe and Lebron all show the fukk out and they weren't necessarily surrounded by great talent.

Handchecking is a farse, it's not going to help a subpar defender against a great offensive player, that was the point.

You're the one stating that handchecking was responsible for lowered score for superstar players, and at least for AI, the data doesn't show that. Plus AI and Kobe were/are jump shooters, so when they get hot there is really not much you can do about, and that is what the zone is intended to do. Make guys take jump shots versus easy buckets from driving.


The point about using the zone (or man with some zone princples) means that it's not as easy to get the quick iso close baskets compared to previously. Not that Superstar players are going to be reduced to Tony Allen status on offense. Even look at Lebron, in the two Finals losses with Miami both Dallas and SA gave him zone looks and dude got lost, especially since he's not a great iso shooter (like Kobe and AI).

 

[BillBanneker]

That sounds like a lot of what's happening today imo, since big men now have a three point shot the opposing rim protector also has to stand out by the 3 point line...the lane was more clogged up before than it is now, zone or not, because centers and PFs mostly actually played in the paint.

Yeah, that's whats happening now, big men are developing the 3pt shot to bring out the C/PF out of the paint to allow for driving lanes in the paint for easier baskets and to stretch the defense out. It's also the reason why I think the midrange shot is dying.

 

[FTBS]

Handchecking is a farse, it's not going to help a subpar defender against a great offensive player, that was the point.

You're the one stating that handchecking was responsible for lowered score for superstar players, and at least for AI, the data doesn't show that. Plus AI and Kobe were/are jump shooters, so when they get hot there is really not much you can do about, and that is what the zone is intended to do. Make guys take jump shots versus easy buckets from driving.


The point about using the zone (or man with some zone princples) means that it's not as easy to get the quick iso close baskets compared to previously. Not that Superstar players are going to be reduced to Tony Allen status on offense. Even look at Lebron, in the two Finals losses with Miami both Dallas and SA gave him zone looks and dude got lost, especially since he's not a great iso shooter (like Kobe and AI).

When did I state this? I mentioned handchecking in passing in my first post which was mostly about zone aka the topic of the thread and somehow that becomes the bolded? Please quote the post where I said or even implied that.

at AI being a great shooter and Bron was getting what he wanted when he wanted against SA last year.

The real issue here is you spouting that inaccurate rubbish about zones and now trying to backtrack and deflect.

 

[Malta]

That sounds like a lot of what's happening today imo, since big men now have a three point shot the opposing rim protector also has to stand out by the 3 point line...the lane was more clogged up before than it is now, zone or not, because centers and PFs mostly actually played in the paint.

That's not a result of the zone though, big men aren't being developed at the lower levels in the US and are floating outside.

Pau, Duncan, Boogie, Jefferson etc all show that you can still be very effective in the post against the modern defense, it's just that those skills aren't being taught like they used to.

 

[Reid2Achieve]

I'm of the opinion that great players will figure defenses out either way.

I think zones are the reason for lower FG percentages though.

 

[BillBanneker]

When did I state this? I mentioned handchecking in passing in my first post which was mostly about zone aka the topic of the thread and somehow that becomes the bolded? Please quote the post where I said or even implied that.

at AI being a great shooter and Bron was getting what he wanted when he wanted against SA last year.

The real issue here is you spouting that inaccurate rubbish about zones and now trying to backtrack and deflect.

You said that scoring increased after handchecking was outlawed, don't play dumb.

And AI was primarily a jump shooter off the dribble, and a pretty good one.
Yeah Bron was unstoppable in that series, that's why they woonnn oh wait.

And you haven't refuted anything I said about zones except "blah blah, guys still score", which wasn't the point, just some bs about handchecking.

 

[mbewane]

That's not a result of the zone though, big men aren't being developed at the lower levels in the US and are floating outside.

Pau, Duncan, Boogie, Jefferson etc all show that you can still be very effective in the post against the modern defense, it's just that those skills aren't being taught like they used to.

Why is it that they are not being taught though? I mean it might be a "chicken and egg" question, but is it that in lower levels the emphasis is now on shooting rather than learning post-up moves, because of the zone? I don't understand why they would learn it less in college since the zone has been in place at that level forever, however since they don't stay in college that long anymore...?

 

[TheSpook]

If you think handchecking doesn't matter you never played basketball. You closing out full speed at a shooter and they decide to drive and you stick that hand out to recover. shyttttttt I know this because all I did was d nikkas up on the court.

 

[FTBS]

You said that scoring increased after handchecking was outlawed, don't play dumb.

And AI was primarily a jump shooter off the dribble, and a pretty good one.
Yeah Bron was unstoppable in that series, that's why they woonnn oh wait.

And you haven't refuted anything I said about zones except "blah blah, guys still score", which wasn't the point, just some bs about handchecking.

It did. You have a means of refuting this? Now show me where I said handchecking kept dudes from scoring? Taking away handchecking made it easier (see guys having career highs the year after it was implemented) but great players could always score.

AI's jumper was streaky as fukk.

Not sure what the Heat winning or losing has to do with how Bron fared against the Spurs defense
How is that not the point? If guys are still scoring at the same rate and in some instances an even greater rate and doing the same things as before the zone clearly is not having the type of impact that some are suggesting.

This is my last response to you, unless you can demonstrate you actually know what you are talking about and aren't a troll. It's my fault for continuing to engage after the "bu...bu...but you couldn't stop Kobe with handchecking" line. Still off that one.

 

[Malta]

Why is it that they are not being taught though? I mean it might be a "chicken and egg" question, but is it that in lower levels the emphasis is now on shooting rather than learning post-up moves, because of the zone? I don't understand why they would learn it less in college since the zone has been in place at that level forever, however since they don't stay in college that long anymore...?

Becoming a great post player takes a lot of work, and the skills needed to become one are difficult to learn, plus it's a lot of repetition, coaching and failing needed to be nice there. Nevermind you have to rely on someone else to get you the ball, It's just easier to have a kid rebound and catch alley oops on the AAU circuit than it is to teach the guards to be unselfish and feed the post.

@mastermind and I have a theory also, strong father figures result in strong low post players, hence John Thompson churning out big man after big man for Georgetown.

Shaq
Duncan
Ewing
Kareem
Wilt
Robinson


All had active fathers in their lives that weren't about to let their sons play like some bytches. Shaq always tells the story about how his pops took him to a Hawks game and told him how much Jon Koncak was making when Shaq was trying to be like Magic Johnson in HS.

 

[BillBanneker]

It did. You have a means of refuting this? Now show me where I said handchecking kept dudes from scoring? Taking away handchecking made it easier (see guys having career highs the year after it was implemented) but great players could always score.

AI's jumper was streaky as fukk.

Not sure what the Heat winning or losing has to do with how Bron fared against the Spurs defense
How is that not the point? If guys are still scoring at the same rate and in some instances an even greater rate and doing the same things as before the zone clearly is not having the type of impact that some are suggesting.

This is my last response to you, unless you can demonstrate you actually know what you are talking about and aren't a troll. It's my fault for continuing to engage after the "bu...bu...but you couldn't stop Kobe with handchecking" line. Still off that one.

You do realize that being able to put your hands on guys and impact their movement impacts your ability to stay in front of them right? I guess it's just a coincidence that individual scoring spiked the year after handchecking was outlawed and that overall scoring has gone up since that time as well.

So you saying that after handcheck was removed isn't saying that handchecking reduced scoring. You obviously can't read cause I never stated that superstars wouldn't score at all, but you can't read so i'll leave it at that.


And it was one guy AI, who's game is dependent on jumpshots, which is what the zone intends for guys to do. So it really doesn't help you imaginary point at all. So it seems like you're the one trolling.

 

[mbewane]

Becoming a great post player takes a lot of work, and the skills needed to become one are difficult to learn, plus it's a lot of repetition, coaching and failing needed to be nice there. Nevermind you have to rely on someone else to get you the ball, It's just easier to have a kid rebound and catch alley oops on the AAU circuit than it is to teach the guards to be unselfish and feed the post.

@mastermind and I have a theory also, strong father figures result in strong low post players, hence John Thompson churning out big man after big man for Georgetown.

Shaq
Duncan
Ewing
Kareem
Wilt
Robinson


All had active fathers in their lives that weren't about to let their sons play like some bytches. Shaq always tells the story about how his pops took him to a Hawks game and told him how much Jon Koncak was making when Shaq was trying to be like Magic Johnson in HS.

sounds like a valid theory to me, when I was growing up (was in my teens in the 90s) we always had more respect for players who did their work in the paint...which is why we had so much respect for MJ because he challenged those guys in the paint...I agree with this theory