Nelson George on the start, and the state, of Hip Hop journalism [Commotion podcast]

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Arts·Commotion

Nelson George on the start, and the state, of hip-hop journalism​

The journalist and filmmaker sits down in studio to talk about hip-hop's 50th anniversary​

CBC Arts · Posted: Nov 28, 2023

Nelson George in the Commotion studio. (CBC)

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Music journalist Nelson George was one of the first writers to document the rise of the new hip-hop movement coming out of New York City . His writing helped lay the groundwork for what we now call hip-hop journalism.

50 years later, George is still exploring the power of hip-hop and Black American culture as an author and filmmaker. Host Elamin Abdelmahmoud sits down with George to talk about how he got his start covering this new sound as a 20-year-old rookie journalist

 

[Piff Perkins]

Very good interview. And a good point on afropop and Bad Bunny, which was kind of cut off by the interviewer. You can dance to that music and it's fun, whereas you can't dance to most hip hop today and it's not fun at all. Very brooding, downtempo 808 beats have been the thing for awhile now. Same with r&b. I definitely wonder how sustainable that is. Pop Smoke's death really looms large in that respect too because he was actually making music you could dance to and he wasn't afraid to dance himself.

I'm not saying hip hop is dying but it's pretty clear the rest of the world is going in a vastly different direction and we've yet to see a new wave of really good or really entertaining rappers emerge in the same way that Drake/Cole/Kendrick emerged, or Travis, or Uzi/Carti, or Pop Smoke/Juice/X.

 

[Amo Husserl]

Very good interview. And a good point on afropop and Bad Bunny, which was kind of cut off by the interviewer. You can dance to that music and it's fun, whereas you can't dance to most hip hop today and it's not fun at all. Very brooding, downtempo 808 beats have been the thing for awhile now. Same with r&b. I definitely wonder how sustainable that is. Pop Smoke's death really looms large in that respect too because he was actually making music you could dance to and he wasn't afraid to dance himself.

I'm not saying hip hop is dying but it's pretty clear the rest of the world is going in a vastly different direction and we've yet to see a new wave of really good or really entertaining rappers emerge in the same way that Drake/Cole/Kendrick emerged, or Travis, or Uzi/Carti, or Pop Smoke/Juice/X.

Charlie Parker, bebop, took jazz out of the dance music association at the time.
Just because hip-hop samples break beats, dancing is optional when it came to some acts: Eric B & Rakim.
It's a problem FBA/ADOS music is often marginalized as dance music. Hip-hop is undergoing a midlife crisis of identity.
Too many other people jumped on this music as a lick for how it was marketed and kept it on a surface level.
Don't second guess the brooding, downtempo thing as hip-hop "dying". It's the rightful inheritors evolving with their culture.
The culture ain't dying, it's undergoing another change. Hip-hop is coming out of withdrawal after decades of abuse.
That's why so many rappers are now talking about ownership and independence.
It's only "dying" because the main consumers can't interact with it like they used to.
This new thing in a early stage, and not everybody will be able to jump on it 'cause....


I think the public got it twisted and too many people got comfortable with hip-hop and R&B as "dance" music.

 

[Piff Perkins]

Charlie Parker, bebop, took jazz out of the dance music association at the time.
Just because hip-hop samples break beats, dancing is optional when it came to some acts: Eric B & Rakim.
It's a problem FBA/ADOS music is often marginalized as dance music. Hip-hop is undergoing a midlife crisis of identity.
Too many other people jumped on this music as a lick for how it was marketed and kept it on a surface level.
Don't second guess the brooding, downtempo thing as hip-hop "dying". It's the rightful inheritors evolving with their culture.
The culture ain't dying, it's undergoing another change. Hip-hop is coming out of withdrawal after decades of abuse.
That's why so many rappers are now talking about ownership and independence.
It's only "dying" because the main consumers can't interact with it like they used to.
This new thing in a early stage, and not everybody will be able to jump on it 'cause....


I think the public got it twisted and too many people got comfortable with hip-hop and R&B as "dance" music.

And then jazz started to slowly die commercially and popularity wise, as people began dancing to other music (rock, pop, r&b, later funk and disco and hip hop). And by the time hard bop reintroduced more swing and rhythm jazz rebounded a bit but never really contested other genres.

The point is that traditionally people have danced and had fun to hip hop music in clubs, parties, etc. Same with pop music, same with a lot of r&b music at different points. We're now at a point where the rap music today is not really being danced to, and a lot of American club culture revolves around people standing around vibing. To the contrary, the Afrobeat and latin/Hispanic music right now is extremely dance-able and that's where the most energy is club wise. So we're kind of entering strange territory where if you want to dance to American music you're probably going to clubs that cater to EDM or pop music instead of rap.

I didn't say the genre is dying. Just pointing out where the energy is right now. Those other genres are exploding right now and are more "fun." I'm sure there will be a course correct as there always is. Someone here will bring the energy back.

(people danced to Eric B & Rakim in the 80s. Paid In Full was a club track)

 

[Amo Husserl]

And then jazz started to slowly die commercially and popularity wise, as people began dancing to other music (rock, pop, r&b, later funk and disco and hip hop). And by the time hard bop reintroduced more swing and rhythm jazz rebounded a bit but never really contested other genres.

The point is that traditionally people have danced and had fun to hip hop music in clubs, parties, etc. Same with pop music, same with a lot of r&b music at different points. We're now at a point where the rap music today is not really being danced to, and a lot of American club culture revolves around people standing around vibing. To the contrary, the Afrobeat and latin/Hispanic music right now is extremely dance-able and that's where the most energy is club wise. So we're kind of entering strange territory where if you want to dance to American music you're probably going to clubs that cater to EDM or pop music instead of rap.

I didn't say the genre is dying. Just pointing out where the energy is right now. Those other genres are exploding right now and are more "fun." I'm sure there will be a course correct as there always is. Someone here will bring the energy back.

(people danced to Eric B & Rakim in the 80s. Paid In Full was a club track)

Jazz died commercially for reasons behind the scenes involving politics and public perception of black people in a global arena during the cold war. By the time those other genres came around there was already an agenda in place with how to market black music and what it should be thanks to how jazz was handled. Those popular markers you're talking about are based on traditional stereotypes.

To your point, talking about popularity is why I brought up marginalization. It doesn't matter if you said the genre isn't dying if it is no longer as viable in popularity like jazz once was if you're measuring it's popularity by how danceable it is. It's certainly no longer having the same effect and declining ("dying") in prominence. Popularity for how you're associating it has to do with how danceable the music is:

You can dance to that music and it's fun, whereas you can't dance to most hip hop today and it's not fun at all.

Is there an association between a music's popularity with how danceable and fun it is /r? What do you have to say about house music /r?
If that's the case, why is it what black popular music is marginalized to how danceable it is given the history of black music /r?

Paid in Full was a club track, but not all their music were club tracks was my point.
When did the club (a place for dancing) become the only place for hip-hop to thrive /r?
Jazz did not traditionally have this problem.

Hip-hop has the opportunity to course correct where black music always went wrong: the expectation that it has to be danceable and fun to be popular.

European classical music has a number of dance forms, but it can be taken seriously.
Why is it when it comes to black music it needs to danceable and fun to be popular /r?



I thought we was trying to move on to bigger and better things for our culture.


Cordially. Peace.

 

[Piff Perkins]

Jazz died commercially for reasons behind the scenes involving politics and public perception of black people in a global arena during the cold war. By the time those other genres came around there was already an agenda in place with how to market black music and what it should be thanks to how jazz was handled. Those popular markers you're talking about are based on traditional stereotypes.

To your point, talking about popularity is why I brought up marginalization. It doesn't matter if you said the genre isn't dying if it is no longer as viable in popularity like jazz once was if you're measuring it's popularity by how danceable it is. It's certainly no longer having the same effect and declining ("dying") in prominence. Popularity for how you're associating it has to do with how danceable the music is:


Is there an association between a music's popularity with how danceable and fun it is /r? What do you have to say about house music /r?
If that's the case, why is it what black popular music is marginalized to how danceable it is given the history of black music /r?

Paid in Full was a club track, but not all their music were club tracks was my point.
When did the club (a place for dancing) become the only place for hip-hop to thrive /r?
Jazz did not traditionally have this problem.

Hip-hop has the opportunity to course correct where black music always went wrong: the expectation that it has to be danceable and fun to be popular.

European classical music has a number of dance forms, but it can be taken seriously.
Why is it when it comes to black music it needs to danceable and fun to be popular /r?



I thought we was trying to move on to bigger and better things for our culture.


Cordially. Peace.

I feel like I'm being trolled at this point. Your jazz argument makes no sense given that the State Department deliberately spread jazz musicians around the world as a means of American soft power (alongside other genres). It's death or decline is moreso due to gate keeping, refusal to evolve alongside other genres (when is the last time there was a jazz standard for a new pop/r&b/rock song) etc.

This might be the first era in decades where we (America in general, not just black people) don't have a heavy hand in club scenes and dancing. I'm sure hip hop will respond eventually, as I said. But we're well into a decade of downtempo trap that people just vibe to in clubs that have killing dancing with bottle service and sections/tables. In the meantime, the youth and energy are with Afrobeat and Hispanic/Latin music. To the point that the initial responses to that last Beyonce album were surreal to me. She dropped a dance/house record, folks appreciated it overall but I remember initial reactions from people wondering what is this. Why isn't it like Lemonade, why isn't it like SZA's last album etc. It's like people forgot to dance or something, before getting their mind right and enjoying it later on.

Nobody said black music can be relegated to just dancing. I'm simply wondering when the energy is going to shift, how, and where. Because it's going to happen. Things always go back to young people dancing to dance-worthy music. That's ultimately what Nelson George was talking about, when he stated that if he was young he'd be trying to seek out Afrobeat scenes right now. Follow the energy, basically.

I love Little Brother but I'm talking about clubs right now. So....yea. Whatever fam.

 

[get these nets]

*should be cued to 18:00 mark when he starts speaking, if not that's the timestamp


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