Nikola Jokic vs Anthony Davis
- Thread starter O.iatlhawksfan
- Start date
You acknowledge on the surface that Jokic's runs the show, but you then use Murray and the "severely underrated" role players rising to the occasion, as if they would've performed the same had AD been on the team instead. AD has never shown the ability of running actions from anywhere on the floor; AD has never shown the ability to create plays out of nothing; AD has never shown the ability to operate as the main ball-handler; AD has never shown the ability to manipulate defenses with his play; AD has never shown the ability to keep players constantly engaged and empowered them.
LeBron is legitimately the only one in the league who compares. And nobody would ever entertain the possibility that AD could elevate the play of those around him like he could.
Denver's eFG% with Jokic on the floor - 57%
Denver's eFG% without Jokic on the floor - 44% (which would dead-last out of all playoff teams)
Denver has the lowest contest-shot rate directly off Jokic's passes (open shots he generates) - 12% lower Doncic, and 17% lower than LeBron
Denver has the highest FG% in the paint with Jokic on the floor.
His passing literally creates more open looks than anyone else in the entire league.
He literally transforms what would be one of the worst offensive support casts into being one of the best-performing ones. There's nothing "severely underrated" about the likes of Milsap, Grant, Harris, Morris and Craig, who while bring their own offensive strings to the team's bow, would otherwise be condemned if it wasn't for Jokic setting the table for them. All of Murray's 40/50-point games, and the support cast making timely shots, have Jokic's fingerprints all over them. Murray and the role players can almost exclusively focus on scoring, and not have to worry about facilitating for one another, making sure they all get regular and equal touches, on top of generating open looks for one another. Their chemistry exists because Jokic is the nucleus. That same magic isn't happening with AD in place of him.
It's not too dissimilar to the offensive success the Warriors have had with Steph, with the way he generates open looks for his team (with the gravity he has by teleporting all over the floor) and the selflessness he has by sharing the ball. You can't just drop Dame into that system and expect the same magic to happen. Dame and AD are buckets, but they don't play in a manner that elevates those around them. They'll get their points, but it can be in the run of sacrificing the betterment of the team.
This can not be emphasized more.
Here we have a 2x DPOY and arguably the best interior defender in the league, whose defensive presence and impact was all but a droplet of water on the fire of Murray all throughout that series.
Denver shot 11% greater in PnR, 8% greater from 15ft+ and 14% greater from behind the arc against Gobert in that series. And he only held them to -3% less inside the paint. Now, granted these percentages aren't entirely on Gobert, as they're nuances to how these plays resulted, and who was at fault.
Which brings me to the point of: individual defense being of less importance than team defense.
Irrespective of my belief that Gobert's defense is overrated, he still is a high-graded defender, who even with his abilities and being the defensive anchor, is at the mercy of those around him. If the players around him aren't rotating, communicating, and giving effort, then his contributions on the defensive end are washed out to sea.
Contrary to popular belief, despite Jokic's foibles on that end, he's still an above-average defender: he has great hands (leads all big men in deflections), great in the post, great at disrupting passing lanes, and has high BBIQ of knowing where to be to at least be a deterrence or stopping a play before it unfolds.
Funnily enough, the Nuggets have had one of the better defenses over the last few seasons with Jokic on the floor (non-garbage time). And it's largely down to the fact that all their heavy-play lineups, all have strengths that are pieces to a puzzle, where if 1-2 are missing, as Harris and Barton did in the opening series, it puts a greater strain on everyone else and exposes their flaws. It's no coincidence that the return of Harris has mitigated some of these issues, and consequently led to Jokic being a plus-defender in the Clippers series. Now I think it goes without saying that Denver's defense would be greater, in general, with AD, but whatever lining he'd provide on that end would hit a limit, and wouldn't be nearly enough to make up for the debt they'd end up having on offense, without Jokic.
I don't doubt that AD is capable of limiting/nullifying their two-man game - he's been the best defensive performer this season. I just don't think that's really going to speak on who's the better player. I mean, after all, AD has the luxury of having Bron standing right next to him.
Which is what I think this series will come down to; the matching of basketball wits between Jokic and LeBron. AD v. Jokic will be nothing more than a subplot.
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FukkaPaidEmail
Retired Hoodrat whisperer
Jokic is on another offensively and Davis is on another level defensively.
This is too high quality of a post for the Coli.You acknowledge on the surface that Jokic's runs the show, but you then use Murray and the "severely underrated" role players rising to the occasion, as if they would've performed the same had AD been on the team instead. AD has never shown the ability of running actions from anywhere on the floor; AD has never shown the ability to create plays out of nothing; AD has never shown the ability to operate as the main ball-handler; AD has never shown the ability to manipulate defenses with his play; AD has never shown the ability to keep players constantly engaged and empowered them.
LeBron is legitimately the only one in the league who compares. And nobody would ever entertain the possibility that AD could elevate the play of those around him like he could.
Denver's eFG% with Jokic on the floor - 57%
Denver's eFG% without Jokic on the floor - 44% (which would dead-last out of all playoff teams)
Denver has the lowest contest-shot rate directly off Jokic's passes (open shots he generates) - 12% lower Doncic, and 17% lower than LeBron
Denver has the highest FG% in the paint with Jokic on the floor.
He literally creates more open looks than anyone else in the entire league.
He literally transforms what would be one of the worst offensive support casts into being one of the best-performing ones. There's nothing "severely underrated" about the likes of Milsap, Grant, Harris, Morris and Craig, who while bring their own offensive strings to the team's bow, would otherwise be condemned if it wasn't for Jokic setting the table for them. All of Murray's 40/50-point games, and the support cast making timely shots, have Jokic's fingerprints all over them. Murray and the role players can almost exclusively focus on scoring, and not have to worry about facilitating for one another, making sure they all get regular and equal touches, on top of generating open looks for one another. Their chemistry exists because Jokic is the nucleus. That same magic isn't happening with AD in place of him.
It's not too dissimilar to the offensive success the Warriors have had with Steph, with the way he generates open looks for his team (with the gravity he has by teleporting all over the floor) and the selflessness he has by sharing the ball. You can't just drop Dame into that system and expect the same magic to happen. Dame and AD are buckets, but they don't play in a manner that elevates those around them. They'll get their points, but it can be in the run of sacrificing the betterment of the team.
This can not be emphasized more.
Here we have a 2x DPOY and arguably the best interior defender in the league, whose defensive presence and impact was all but a droplet of water on the fire of Murray all throughout that series.
Denver shot 11% greater in PnR, 8% greater from 15ft+ and 14% greater from behind the arc against Gobert in that series. And he only held them to -3% less inside the paint. Now, granted these percentages aren't entirely on Gobert, as they're nuances to how these plays resulted, and who was at fault.
Which brings me to the point of: individual defense being of less importance than team defense.
Irrespective of my belief that Gobert's defense is overrated, he still is a high-graded defender, who even with his abilities and being the defensive anchor, is at the mercy of those around him. If the players around him aren't rotating, communicating, and giving effort, then his contributions on the defensive end are washed out to sea.
Contrary to popular belief, despite Jokic's foibles on that end, he's still an above-average defender: he has great hands (leads all big men in deflections), great in the post, great at disrupting passing lanes, and has high BBIQ of knowing where to be to at least be a deterrence or stopping a play before it unfolds.
Funnily enough, the Nuggets have had one of the better defenses over the last few seasons with Jokic on the floor (non-garbage time). And it's largely down to the fact that all their heavy-play lineups, all have strengths that are pieces to a puzzle, where if 1-2 are missing, as Harris and Barton did in the opening series, it puts a greater strain on everyone else and exposes their flaws. It's no coincidence that the return of Harris has mitigated some of these issues, and consequently led to Jokic being a plus-defender in the Clippers series. Now I think it goes without saying that Denver's defense would be greater, in general, with AD, but whatever lining he'd provide on that end would hit a limit, and wouldn't be nearly enough to make up for the debt they'd end up having on offense, without Jokic.
I don't doubt that AD is capable of limiting/nullifying their two-man game - he's been the best defensive performer this season. I just don't think that's really going to speak on who's the better player. I mean, after all, AD has the luxury of having Bron standing right next to him.
Which is what I think this series will come down to; the matching of basketball wits between Jokic and LeBron. AD v. Jokic will be nothing more than a subplot.
paidNfull
Live By It, Die By It
AD dont have any weaknesses in his offensive game tho, all Jokic do is probably pass better, besides that...AD can handle like a point guard, post up, fadeaway, hit the mid range, hit the 3, hes a better paint player, high flyer, catch lobs....wtf wrong with people on here
FukkaPaidEmail
Retired Hoodrat whisperer
He runs an entire offense that’s not just passing better
AD could never lift a team like Jokic does .
Thread shows who watched basketball in the regular season and not just the last week 
paidNfull
Live By It, Die By It
Passing better is crucial, but that's all he does better.....that's itHe runs an entire offense that’s not just passing better
AD could never lift a team like Jokic does .
Passing better is oversimplifying it. He runs an offense. That requires more than just passing better. You can use that as a talking point for someone like Sabonis, but not Jokic.
ajnapoleon
Veteran
Its funny
Now Being able to pass really well is a good thing
But Anyway ....
The real reason the nuggets got by the clippers is because the Clippers doubled and joker picked them apart
And they had no center that could move with him zubac too green and trezz too small
No he have AD and dwight people forget dwight was a 3 time defense player of the year and he fresh
And Magee those 3 are faster than joker On a fastbreak
And can stay with him
Oh and
And rondo can pass too
Imagine if they had bradly still
Its not Gonna be easy but joker not gonna do what he did to the clippers
Now Being able to pass really well is a good thing
But Anyway ....
The real reason the nuggets got by the clippers is because the Clippers doubled and joker picked them apart
And they had no center that could move with him zubac too green and trezz too small
No he have AD and dwight people forget dwight was a 3 time defense player of the year and he fresh
And Magee those 3 are faster than joker On a fastbreak
And can stay with him
Oh and
And rondo can pass tooImagine if they had bradly still
Its not Gonna be easy but joker not gonna do what he did to the clippers
SadimirPutin
Superstar
AD will be just fine this series...but we will come back to this thread once the series starts
