No 90s Hip Hop Album has Stood The Test of Time Quite Like Mobb Deep’s The Infamous - GOAT Album

[JustCKing]

In real time, 2001 was a commercial juggernaut. Let’s imagine it was the 15th most commercially successful rap album of the 90s. Now it’s #1 in streaming. It’s stood the test of time, but it had a strong foundation.

The Infamous, on the other hand, was likely somewhere between 100-200 in real time in terms of its commercial success as compared to other 90s rap albums. Now it’s #12

2001 moved up 15 spots, maybe slightly more.
The Infamous moved up 88-188 spots. No 90s album has stood the test of time quite like The Infamous.

The difference is Infamous did move up to the 12th most successful rap album of the 90's. It's just the 12th most streamed rap album of the 90's. 2001 has been a mainstay on the charts, sales wise AND streaming. Infamous has not. 2001 has spent 200+ weeks on the Billboard 200 and is the oldest Hip Hop album to do so. To say Infamous is the most timeless Hip Hop album based on the fact that it is the 12th most streamed Hip Hop album of the 90's (and then justifying it saying that it wasn't a commercial juggernaut) is laughable. 2001 was massive two decades ago and is STILL going strong without a certified single or even a single that was some mega hit? How is that not timeless?

 

[mobbinfms]

The difference is Infamous did move up to the 12th most successful rap album of the 90's. It's just the 12th most streamed rap album of the 90's. 2001 has been a mainstay on the charts, sales wise AND streaming. Infamous has not. 2001 has spent 200+ weeks on the Billboard 200 and is the oldest Hip Hop album to do so. To say Infamous is the most timeless Hip Hop album based on the fact that it is the 12th most streamed Hip Hop album of the 90's (and then justifying it saying that it wasn't a commercial juggernaut) is laughable. 2001 was massive two decades ago and is STILL going strong without a certified single or even a single that was some mega hit? How is that not timeless?

I think it’s pretty clear that we are taking about commercia success in the 90s, when streaming didn’t exist, as compared to today, when streaming is the dominant form of music consumption and commercial activity aka “sales”.

I never said Infamous was the most timeless album of the 90s. I said no other album has stood the test of time QUITE like it. There is a big difference between what I am saying and what you are saying. Focus on what I’m saying if you want to debate what I’m saying.

By the way, 200 weeks is 4 years. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised that 2001 would still be charting because it was a commercial juggernaut and the singles were massive (this is an obvious example of Billboard missing the mark as all three singles were huge).

 

[JustCKing]

I think it’s pretty clear that we are taking about commercia success in the 90s, when streaming didn’t exist, as compared to today, when streaming is the dominant form of music consumption and commercial activity aka “sales”.

I never said Infamous was the most timeless album of the 90s. I said no other album has stood the test of time QUITE like it. There is a big difference between what I am saying and what you are saying. Focus on what I’m saying if you want to debate what I’m saying.

By the way, 200 weeks is 4 years. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised that 2001 would still be charting because it was a commercial juggernaut and the singles were massive (this is an obvious example of Billboard missing the mark as all three singles were huge).

2001 was dominant back when physicals were the number one form of consumption and is still dominant in the streaming era. That's the point: 2001 is a juggernaut in both eras where other Hip Hop albums have not been. Therefore, it has definitely stood the test of time more so than any other 90's Hip Hop album if we are looking at how the album has performed since it came out (pre-streaming and post-streaming).

Most timeless is the same thing as saying no other album has stood the test of time quite like it. It's the same thing breh. Saying otherwise is just playing a game of semantics.

Breh, why aren't other albums that were far more of juggernauts from the 90's still charting?

Breh, how can you sit there and say Billboard missed the mark? These are the people that measure airplay and consumption. Those songs felt massive, but they weren't massive. World of difference between being bombarded daily with the singles from Puff's No Way Out and how much play the singles from 2001 got.

And yes, 2001 charting for 200 weeks is still a surprise. It's mind boggling how that album is still as big as it is of every 90's album.

 

[PHamm]

There should be STAN tags for certain posters like we do with the WOAT tag

 

[mobbinfms]

2001 was dominant back when physicals were the number one form of consumption and is still dominant in the streaming era. That's the point: 2001 is a juggernaut in both eras where other Hip Hop albums have not been. Therefore, it has definitely stood the test of time more so than any other 90's Hip Hop album if we are looking at how the album has performed since it came out (pre-streaming and post-streaming).

Most timeless is the same thing as saying no other album has stood the test of time quite like it. It's the same thing breh. Saying otherwise is just playing a game of semantics.

Breh, why aren't other albums that were far more of juggernauts from the 90's still charting?

Breh, how can you sit there and say Billboard missed the mark? These are the people that measure airplay and consumption. Those songs felt massive, but they weren't massive. World of difference between being bombarded daily with the singles from Puff's No Way Out and how much play the singles from 2001 got.

And yes, 2001 charting for 200 weeks is still a surprise. It's mind boggling how that album is still as big as it is of every 90's album.

The way I see it, 2001 is like someone who comes from a wealthy family and maintains that wealth into adulthood and maybe even modestly increases it.

It did and continues to do what it was supposed to do. Not everyone does. Some rich kids end up broke.

The Infamous is like growing up broke and becoming a multimillionaire.

You defied the odds and did what the system is set up to prevent you from doing.

That’s why I say no 90s album has stood the test of time quite like The Infamous has. I am not saying it is the only or most timeless album of the 90s.

It has its own niche or lane when it comes to standing the test of time. It has different circumstances from the other 11 albums ahead of it.

You can acknowledge that fact and we can move on, or we can keep repeating ourselves for the next few weeks

 

[Piff Perkins]

I'm not gonna get into a sales debate, only thing I'll say is The Infamous still influences the east coast sound to this day, whereas 2001 does not influence the west coast sound today.

 

[JustCKing]

The way I see it, 2001 is like someone who comes from a wealthy family and maintains that wealth into adulthood and maybe even modestly increases it.

It did and continues to do what it was supposed to do. Not everyone does. Some rich kids end up broke.

The Infamous is like growing up broke and becoming a multimillionaire.

You defied the odds and did what the system is set up to prevent you from doing.

That’s why I say no 90s album has stood the test of time quite like The Infamous has. I am not saying it is the only or most timeless album of the 90s.

It has its own niche or lane when it comes to standing the test of time. It has different circumstances from the other 11 albums ahead of it.

You can acknowledge that fact and we can move on, or we can keep repeating ourselves for the next few weeks

What does doing what it's supposed to do even mean? Before 2001, Dre's ceiling was 3X platinum and that was with BIGGER singles far bigger than the ones from 2001. Before dropping 2001, he was written off as a has been. Sure, him producing Eminem and his involvement in Snoop's Top Dogg helped raise profile immensely, but 2001 ended up outselling both of those albums combined. Not only is it Dre's biggest album, but no one could've predicted 2001 being a bigger deal than Jay Z's Vol. 3 and DMX's And Then There Was X commercially and these albums dropped within weeks of each other. Both X and Jay had albums that had outsold Chronic. Those albums had bigger singles commercially. Fast forward nearly 25 years later, it's the most streamed Hip Hop album of the 90's and still makes appearances on the Billboard 200. As of 2021, it is the 28th most streamed Hip Hop album EVER.

Infamous doesn't compare. Like 2001, no one would've predicted this would be one of the most consumed albums from the 90's either (at least not from a commercial stand point, but this was always a treasured 90's album). Point is, it didn't stand the test of time no more than any other 90's album that made the list. With streaming, there's a plethora of factors that aren't even being considered because there are all kinds of variables that go into streaming that are still changing.

 

[mobbinfms]

What does doing what it's supposed to do even mean?

A 6x platinum 90s albums is supposed to do huge streaming numbers.

Before 2001, Dre's ceiling was 3X platinum

You can’t compare 92 sales numbers to 99. Hip hop and the music industry as a whole had grown substantially.

with BIGGER singles far bigger than the ones from 2001

Are you trying to argue that the billboard numbers accurately reflect how big the 2001 singles were?

Before dropping 2001, he was written off as a has been

Are you trying to say that Dre fell off? How? His last album was the Chronic.

Not only is it Dre's biggest album, but no one could've predicted 2001 being a bigger deal than Jay Z's Vol. 3 and DMX's And Then There Was X commercially and these albums dropped within weeks of each other.

No one could have predicted it huh?
I’ll grant you the Firm Flop and the Aftermath comp we’re reasons Dre ain’t been getting no sleep, but to act as if it was completely out of the realm of possibility that Dre would sell more than Jay and X is laughable.

Sure, him producing Eminem and his involvement in Snoop's Top Dogg helped raise profile immensely, but 2001 ended up outselling both of those albums combined.

Yeah. Then Em went Diamond a few months later.

Both X and Jay had albums that had outsold Chronic.

Again. You can’t compare 92 albums to 98 albums. You know better.

Like 2001, no one would've predicted this would be one of the most consumed albums from the 90's either (at least not from a commercial stand point, but this was always a treasured 90's album).

Really? So Infamous and 2001 are just equals in terms of streaming projections in 2022-2023?
The album that did 800,000 vs the album that did 6 million (and even in 99 the Mobb only did a million).

No one would have predicted The Infamous would crack the top 50. 2001 you would have expected in the top 20 at worst.

With streaming, there's a plethora of factors that aren't even being considered because there are all kinds of variables that go into streaming that are still changing.

This is a well written sentence that boils down to nothing. What exactly are you trying to say here?

 

[JustCKing]

6x platinum 90s albums is supposed to do huge streaming numbers

There are albums that sold more that aren't in the top of that list.

Bone have albums that sold 4 and 5 million copies a piece that aren't the list.

You can’t compare 92 sales numbers to 99. Hip hop and the music industry as a whole had grown substantially.

1992 is a year that saw a diamond Hammer album, a 5X platinum Kriss Kross album, an Arrested Development album that went 4X platinum.

Are you trying to argue that the billboard numbers accurately reflect how big the 2001 singles were?

Commercially, Billboard accurately depicts how big a single is.

No one could have predicted it huh?
I’ll grant you the Firm Flop and the Aftermath comp we’re reasons Dre ain’t been getting no sleep, but to act as if it was completely out of the realm of possibility that Dre would sell more than Jay and X is laughable.

There would be no "Still Dre" if 2001 wasn't a comeback of sorts for Dre. Jay and X were the biggest thing in rap. You would be laughed out the building for saying 2001 would outsell And Then There Was X or Vol. 3.

Yeah. Then Em went Diamond a few months later.

That was MMLP.

Again. You can’t compare 92 albums to 98 albums. You know better.

More rap albumsbwent platinum in 1998-1999 than any other period, but 1992 was huge commercial milestone for rap.

Really? So Infamous and 2001 are just equals in terms of streaming projections in 2022-2023?
The album that did 800,000 vs the album that did 6 million (and even in 99 the Mobb only did a million).

No one would have predicted The Infamous would crack the top 50. 2001 you would have expected in the top 20 at worst.

Never said they were equals.

This is a well written sentence that boils down to nothing. What exactly are you trying to say here?

What I'm saying is using streaming numbers to justify an album "not being able to stand the test of time like Infamous" is pretty laughable. Why? It ignores a bunch of factors. It would be like using a sales argument to justify quality, which again ignores a bunch of factors.

 

[mobbinfms]

There are albums that sold more that aren't in the top of that list.

Bone have albums that sold 4 and 5 million copies a piece that aren't the list.

Yes. That’s why I said some rich kids go broke. Get it now?

Commercially, Billboard accurately depicts how big a single is.

Got it. Missy’s The Rain didn’t chart at all. Can we agree it was a flop then? Since you claim billboard is infallible.

There would be no "Still Dre" if 2001 wasn't a comeback of sorts for Dre. Jay and X were the biggest thing in rap. You would be laughed out the building for saying 2001 would outsell And Then There Was X or Vol. 3.

It’s insane to me that you actually believe this, but I think you are a few years younger than me (I’m a few months away from 43) so I wonder if you weren’t fully cognizant during the Chronic/Doggystyle era and that colored your perception of things in 99. Either way, crazy take to me.

That was MMLP.

Which dropped a few months later. Em boosted Dre with SSLP, but Dre boosted Em with 2001.

More rap albumsbwent platinum in 1998-1999 than any other period, but 1992 was huge commercial milestone for rap.

Like I said, you can’t compare 92 to 98. It seems that we agree on that.

Never said they were equals.

Well that’s my whole point, so what exactly are we debating then?

What I'm saying is using streaming numbers to justify an album "not being able to stand the test of time like Infamous" is pretty laughable. Why? It ignores a bunch of factors. It would be like using a sales argument to justify quality, which again ignores a bunch of factors.

What are the bunch of factors that apply to 90s rap albums?

 

[JustCKing]

Yes. That’s why I said some rich kids go broke. Get it now?

This makes no sense at all.

Got it. Missy’s The Rain didn’t chart at all. Can we agree it was a flop then? Since you claim billboard is infallible.

What does this even have to do with anything?

It’s insane to me that you actually believe this, but I think you are a few years younger than me (I’m a few months away from 43) so I wonder if you weren’t fully cognizant during the Chronic/Doggystyle era and that colored your perception of things in 99. Either way, crazy take to me.

I remember The Chronic and Doggystyle well. In 1998, Dre and Snoop were a long way away from that era. Snoop wasn't doing Jay and DMX numbers in 1998, so how was this notion of Dre somehow managing to outsell Jay and X be a crazy takem

Which dropped a few months later. Em boosted Dre with SSLP, but Dre boosted Em with 2001.

Why would Dre need boosting? And for the record, Eminem was not even outselling X and Jay in 1999.

Well that’s my whole point, so what exactly are we debating then?

I am debating that is insane to use streaming to justify how well an album stood the test of time especially when you are adding conditions such as it not being a commercial juggernaut to the mix.

What are the bunch of factors that apply to 90s rap albums?

1) Streaming didn't exist in the 90's.

2) You don't have to stream an entire album for it to count as a stream.

3) Availability. How long has the album been on the platform?

4) Spotify is the only streaming platform where this type of information can be compiled.

 

[mobbinfms]

This makes no sense at all.

I don’t know how else to explain it. It’s a really straightforward analogy.

What does this even have to do with anything?

Nah. Don’t do that. That’s weak. Either concede the point that Billboard isn’t always right or admit that The Rain was a flopped single.

I remember The Chronic and Doggystyle well. In 1998, Dre and Snoop were a long way away from that era. Snoop wasn't doing Jay and DMX numbers in 1998, so how was this notion of Dre somehow managing to outsell Jay and X be a crazy takem

How old were you in late 92 when the Chronic dropped?

Why would Dre need boosting? And for the record, Eminem was not even outselling X and Jay in 1999.

For the reasons that I gave you earlier.
He wasn’t in 99, are you arguing that 2001 alone took him from triple platinum to Diamond?

I am debating that is insane to use streaming to justify how well an album stood the test of time especially when you are adding conditions such as it not being a commercial juggernaut to the mix.

It’s insane?
I don’t think you know what the word means to be using it so incorrectly.
How exactly is using data regarding how much people continue to listen to a particular album now an “insane” way to evaluate the extent to which it stood the test of time?
How exactly is it “insane” to look to how successful an album was during its run when evaluating the streaming numbers and the extent to which the album stood the test of time? Are you saying how much an album sold is irrelevant to how much we would expect it to stream?

1) Streaming didn't exist in the 90's.

2) You don't have to stream an entire album for it to count as a stream.

3) Availability. How long has the album been on the platform?

4) Spotify is the only streaming platform where this type of information can be compiled.

Of course streaming didn’t exist in the 90s. That’s what makes the numbers so useful. They don’t include the period of time when the album was brand new.

2 is correct but we can see the play count for each individual track and add them up.

3 is a fair point.

4 is accurate, to my knowledge, but Spotify is the largest platform. Are you saying their numbers are irrelevant? If so, why?

 

[JustCKing]

Nah. Don’t do that. That’s weak. Either concede the point that Billboard isn’t always right or admit that The Rain was a flopped single.

Missy Elliott has NOTHING to do with this. Even still, there's this:

"Because it wasn’t initially released on a physical format, Elliott did not get on the Hot 100 for her first solo hit, although 'The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)'"

Missy Misdemeanor Elliott's 'Supa Dupa Fly': 4 Things You Didn't Know

Which mogul tried to sign her first, why “The Rain” didn’t chart and how quickly the rapper-singer’s debut LP was recorded

www.google.com

How exactly is it “insane” to look to how successful an album was during its run when evaluating the streaming numbers and the extent to which the album stood the test of time? Are you saying how much an album sold is irrelevant to how much we would expect it to stream?

Sales are irrelevant to streams. They aren't the same. An artist can sell more physicals and still stream extremely low. We can look at soundscan information even now as it applies to current artists. In a lot of instances, the number of physicals sold and the streaming numbers have a gap.

is accurate, to my knowledge, but Spotify is the largest platform. Are you saying their numbers are irrelevant? If so, why?

Where did I say Spotify was irrelevant? While it may be the largest platform, it doesn't give us the full picture given that Apple is also huge.

 

[mobbinfms]

Missy Elliott has NOTHING to do with this. Even still, there's this:

"Because it wasn’t initially released on a physical format, Elliott did not get on the Hot 100 for her first solo hit, although 'The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)'"

So we agree then that there are instances where Billboard gets it wrong.

Sales are irrelevant to streams. They aren't the same. An artist can sell more physicals and still stream extremely low. We can look at soundscan information even now as it applies to current artists. In a lot of instances, the number of physicals sold and the streaming numbers have a gap.

With all due respect, what the hell are you talking about?
My point is simple. A 90s rap album that went 6x platinum back in the day, should be out streaming (in current times) another 90s rap album that went gold. By a wide margin. Do you dispute that as a general principle?

Where did I say Spotify was irrelevant?

If Spotify numbers are relevant., why is it insane to consider them?

 

[JustCKing]

So we agree then that there are instances where Billboard gets it wrong.

How did they get it wrong? It's a rule that THEY made. It's their chart.

My point is simple. A 90s rap album that went 6x platinum back in the day, should be out streaming (in current times) another 90s rap album that went gold. By a wide margin. Do you dispute that as a general principle?

According to you. It is not as simple as an album that was huge in the 90's should have high streaming numbers decades later. It doesn't work like that. This is evidence that you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.

There are no general rules because the data that you are attempting to use is ever changing. Streaming is still new and to attempt to apply streaming numbers to justify "no 90's album stood the test of time quite like Infamous" is insane.

I challenge you to make a separate thread about how the streaming numbers DIRECTLY correlate to your premise.

There are a bunch of albums from the 90's that were high sellers that stream less than albums that sold significantly less. I've brought this up multiple times.

If Spotify numbers are relevant., why is it insane to consider them?

Because Spotify isn't the ENTIRE picture. Never said they shouldn't be considered. They just aren't the whole picture.

Point blank, by your own logic, Infamous has not stood the test of time more than any other 90's Hip Hop album as there's other 90's Hip Hop albums that have significantly more streams. Streaming has nothing to do with how much it sold in real time and no matter what you or I expected an album to stream has no bearing on the data or the facts.