We got two really good players with lots of upside and the usual suspects In here don’t mind trading them. That’s why the knicks could never lay a foundation
Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread
- Thread starter DPresidential
- Start date
- Status
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
Brandon Ingram just got an award for most improved player on 37% shooting from 3 and 32% from 2 and people are overlooking it to shyt on rookies getting the same percentages and higher with less min per game. I've officially checked out.We got two really good players with lots of upside and the usual suspects In here don’t mind trading them. That’s why the knicks could never lay a foundation
People shifted on Gentry but he coached the fukk outta them rookies and even improved Lonzo's performance.
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
Mook played around leaders and learned from them but he played dirty and had a short temper. Taj learned leadership from playing with Rose.CP3 is the leader we need.
I could definitely see RJ, Mitch, Frank and Knox learning a lot from him and benefit from the spacing. We never really had a nikka who could lead by example, the closest was Mook but that wasnt long term.
Randle and Peyton should've been screamed on and slapped up then put on the bench.
seemorecizzy
Superstar
if you look back far enough in this thread (or extend it to sohh) youll see people in here saying willy hergomanez and laundry fields are untradeable.We got two really good players with lots of upside and the usual suspects In here don’t mind trading them. That’s why the knicks could never lay a foundation
a few years ago KP was considered untradeable.
no one is untradeable when your team is shyt. you should be listening to all offers. dont overvalue your own talent like we've done many times before.
theres only like 5-8 untradeable players in da league and none of em are on our roster lol
rj is the closest, mitchell robinson being excluded from all potential trades is laughable and im a fan of his
I didn’t want Willy hernangomez traded. I was a big fan of his. But ask yourself a question when do you stop pushing the reset button?
seemorecizzy
Superstar
i know you were
but he sucks
and thats my point lol
hopefully this is the last reset for a while
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
I liked Hernangomez but he was very tradable. Also, I was never a fan of Landry Fields like I'm not a fan of Ntilikina like the rest. I just understand their sentiments. The people that I liked left the Knicks to become good on other teams like Jamal Crawford. Also, I liked Wilson Chandler. Those 2, I would've never traded.
I don't wanna see RJ, Knox or Mitchell traded but we'll see what happens.
If I could, I'd dump the rest of the team and build stars around them while I play them into the ground.
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
Lol u don’t even know what you saying
seemorecizzy
Superstar
jamal crawford played well for us
he's not a "stay on one team" kinda player
wilson chandler isnt anything special
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
Of all the wack overrated young Knicks this nikka could've chose, he calls Gallo and Wilson Chandler bums
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
There's a difference between "don't mind trading" and "not passing up a good offer to keep"We got two really good players with lots of upside and the usual suspects In here don’t mind trading them. That’s why the knicks could never lay a foundation
There's nothing wrong with taking a shot at a stronger foundation
PRVLG Sound Studios
PRVLG Sound Studios
Rich Paul gonna have him demanding a huge contract after this tho, that’s why now would be the time to trade him if ever.Mitch only making a mil and a half a year, I'm not trading him
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
Anybody pay for the athletic...I wanna read this article
When should Knicks pay Mitchell Robinson? How much could Frank Ntilikina make?
Last edited:
Miles Davis
Prince of Darkness
The list of issues on the Knicks’ agenda is longer than you’d think, especially after another losing season. But instead of focusing on the present, Mike Vorkunov, The Athletic’s Knicks beat reporter, and Danny Leroux, The Athletic’s cap guru, shift to the future in a continuation of their conversation from last week about the franchise. (Here’s Part 1 if you missed it.)
This time, they look at how the Knicks can and should maneuver with Mitchell Robinson’s contract, and what Frank Ntilikina could make on his second NBA deal.
Vorkunov: You mentioned Robinson’s contract, which I’ve been thinking about since I just did a piece looking at his 2019-20 season. The Knicks have him on non-guaranteed years for 2020-21 and 2021-22. I don’t need to be a capologist to know they’ll pick up his contract for next year. If he plays out all four years, he’ll become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2022, which could pose big problems for the Knicks if they let him hit the open market and someone outbids them or Robinson wants to leave. To me, that means they essentially have to make a decision on his next contract during the 2021 offseason. I was thinking an extension after his third season as the palatable solution, if they want to go that way, but New York could also let him hit restricted free agency.
How could you see that playing out? There’s a lot of value to having a very good big on a very cheap deal for two years (about $3.5 million in total), but that could come with long-term problems. What kind of contract could Robinson earn from the Knicks, or another team?
Leroux: Although Robinson is not at his level, the closest parallel recently is Nikola Jokic, who had already blossomed by the time the Nuggets chose between restricted free agency a year early and a cheap season before unrestricted free agency. In that case, Denver chose to decline the option to have match rights and it was absolutely the right call, as it would be here knowing what we know now.
If the Knicks decline the 2021-22 option, Robinson still has a low cap hold in 2021 until he is on the new contract, either by signing directly with the Knicks or the Knicks matching an offer sheet. The Knicks would then be able to maximize their space without Robinson’s big raise weakening their flexibility. That is nice because 2021 is a loaded class.
The tradeoff would come in 2022, when Robinson would have a similarly low cap hold as an unrestricted free agent but a large number if he signed the year before. Whether the front office prefers 2022 free agency over 2021 could matter, but they would still have a lot of spending power since RJ Barrett will still be on his rookie scale contract and only Kevin Knox and Ignas Brazdekis will be restricted free agents. Even so, declining the option and making Robinson a restricted free agent in 2021 is the more logical decision.
Vorkunov: What kind of contract do you think Robinson could earn next offseason, if he did go that route? There are a lot of variables (what the cap is, how he plays next season), but is there a comp you have in mind? I think he’s definitely a productive and valuable player, but there are valid questions about how much to pay a non-shooting big who has two very good skills right now and needs a lot of work in other areas. Clint Capela earned five years and $90 million to re-sign with the Rockets two summers ago when he was a 24-year-old restricted free agent. Robinson would be 23 next offseason and three years into his career.
Leroux: Oh, man. Capela had proven more to that point than Robinson has through two seasons, but Robinson has another year to make up ground. My instinct is that a $15 million average salary works as an expected value right now, but Robinson can move that number a ton in either direction between now and then. Robinson started less than one-third of the Knicks’ games in each of his first two seasons, meaning we have not seen him in extended minutes against starters that much. Still, he has the physical talent to either establish himself in 2020-21 or entice a general manager looking to make a splash by adding a young player with upside.
While playing time and role will affect his counting stats and level of attention on him, the biggest factor affecting Robinson’s value is his defense. We have a pretty good idea of Robinson’s game offensively, but center is still a very defense-focused position, so getting a better sense of whether he can be good, very good or even elite will make a huge difference. No one will expect Robinson to be fully formed and mistake-proof on that end around his 23rd birthday (right before 2021 free agency), but he can make a ton more money in restricted free agency with a strong third season.
Vorkunov: Where do you think Robinson is right now as a defender? I’m curious if our opinions differ because of the frequency with which we each watch the Knicks. I think right now Robinson has proven he’s a good defender and is close to very good. His rebounding needs to improve, and he needs to be a better team defender. If he’s not a very good defender by the time he reaches free agency then there is less reason for the Knicks to invest a multi-year deal in him around that $15 million number annually. But if he is and you think he can be elite then he’s a definite building block.
Leroux: It is intensely hard to evaluate defense, whether we are talking eye test, film, stats/analytics or some combination of them. Fortunately, those elements largely sync up with Robinson right now: more good than great with the physical building blocks to eventually be dominant in best-case scenarios.
His rim protection is a good place to start. Blocking shots is nice and an important component, but the best defensive centers deter opponents from taking attempts around the basket far more than they block them. That did not happen much for Robinson as a rookie, partially due to things out of his control, like the Knicks’ roster. But it largely happened in 2019-20. Opponents took only 33.8 percent of their shots around the basket, per Cleaning the Glass, when he was on the floor, and took more than normal from floater range, typically a signal that they did not want to test a center.
Elite centers do even more than deter those shots and provide rim protection. Both Robinson and the Knicks commit a ton of fouls when he is on the court, giving opponents a way to score points and get into the bonus. Robinson absolutely improved by biting less on pump fakes, but he still has to become more disciplined in those situations. He committed an insane 7.7 fouls per 100 possessions as a rookie. That dropped to 6.7 this season, but that is still way too high, especially since Robinson was not facing starters full-time.
The other big flaw is rebounding. With Robinson on the floor this season, the Knicks secured only 25.3 percent of defensive rebounds, which is about league average. Considering he often played alongside another big man, that number needs to improve, especially since it was far worse the year before. The Knicks will want more shooting on the floor in future seasons, leaving more work for Robinson and Barrett (a talented rebounder for his position) to do in that phase of the game. Being more selective as a shot blocker will make a big difference, as will a greater focus on boxing out and positioning. That often happens as a young big man adjusts to the NBA and fills out his body.
Vorkunov: OK, Danny, now I want to ask you about the most divisive player on the Knicks roster: Frank Ntilikina. Lots of Knicks fans love him and lots are bearish on his future. He’ll be a restricted free agent in the offseason of 2021. Where do you stand on Ntilikina, and what kind of contract do you think he could pull down? For some reason I have Dante Exum’s three-year, $33 million extension with the Jazz in my head, though I think that’s probably not right since Exum had a worse injury history but better offensive production.
Leroux: Paralleling Exum, I was a big fan of Ntilikina’s when he was a prospect. It actually reflects one of my flaws as a draft analyst because both were a lot less valuable as NBA players if they were not able to be the primary creator for a starting five. Either could have grown into that type of initiator, but it has not happened yet, so their role needs to be much different.
Ntilikina’s defense is still his calling card, and not much has dampened my view of him on that end. But a guard who is a limited creator needs to be both a reliable off-ball shooter and opportunistic offensive player to be a viable starter. Unfortunately, he just does not check both of those boxes yet. He shot 33.7 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s last season, which is far from terrible, but probably not consistent enough for opponents to regret helping off him. Similarly, he showed improvement as a secondary option, but still needs to improve in every facet just to stay above water, much less thrive.
There is absolutely a place for Ntilikina in the NBA, even if he never figures it out offensively. But that place should not be as a starting guard until he proves a lot more than he has so far. That Jazz front office was the same one that chose Exum fifth overall and ended up regretting that contract, eventually moving him along for Jordan Clarkson. Barring a breakout performance in 2020-21, which is absolutely possible, expect Ntilikina to get less than $10 million per season either on an offer sheet or new contract with whomever holds his rights at the end of the next season.
Vorkunov: Aside from Robinson and Barrett, who should be foundational pieces for the Knicks going forward? Is there anyone else on the roster you think the new front office should make an effort to keep going forward, either because of their talent or their contract or because you see some reason they should be playing more?
Leroux: There is not anyone that I see as truly essential outside of those two, but there are a few other guys worth mentioning. Damyean Dotson showed some flashes as a jump shooter and active defender, a combination that makes sense in a guard rotation, even if starting is probably asking too much. Typically, non-star restricted free agents get squeezed by the matching process, so it is entirely possible for the Knicks to bring him back at a reasonable price.
Dennis Smith Jr.’s physical potential excited me going all the way back to high school, but a variety of challenges on and off the court have side-tracked his professional career. The balancing act with Smith: avoid extending him, have sufficient depth at point guard ahead of him, and still give him chances in the rotation when he is ready for it. If things work out, the front office could use Bird rights or even match rights to bring him back without having to commit to anything unless and until he proves it. It would also be nice to see more of Brazdeikis with the main club, especially since even low-end rotation players would be a huge help for a franchise that needs so much depth at the top and bottom of their lineup.
Considering the Knicks look to be well out of the playoff picture for 2020-21, their next coach will have to balance putting the foundational pieces in a place to succeed, or even just be evaluated reasonably, but there will still be opportunities for Ntilikina, Dotson, Brazdeikis, Smith and their 2020 picks to see what they can bring to the table now and down the line.
This time, they look at how the Knicks can and should maneuver with Mitchell Robinson’s contract, and what Frank Ntilikina could make on his second NBA deal.
Vorkunov: You mentioned Robinson’s contract, which I’ve been thinking about since I just did a piece looking at his 2019-20 season. The Knicks have him on non-guaranteed years for 2020-21 and 2021-22. I don’t need to be a capologist to know they’ll pick up his contract for next year. If he plays out all four years, he’ll become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2022, which could pose big problems for the Knicks if they let him hit the open market and someone outbids them or Robinson wants to leave. To me, that means they essentially have to make a decision on his next contract during the 2021 offseason. I was thinking an extension after his third season as the palatable solution, if they want to go that way, but New York could also let him hit restricted free agency.
How could you see that playing out? There’s a lot of value to having a very good big on a very cheap deal for two years (about $3.5 million in total), but that could come with long-term problems. What kind of contract could Robinson earn from the Knicks, or another team?
Leroux: Although Robinson is not at his level, the closest parallel recently is Nikola Jokic, who had already blossomed by the time the Nuggets chose between restricted free agency a year early and a cheap season before unrestricted free agency. In that case, Denver chose to decline the option to have match rights and it was absolutely the right call, as it would be here knowing what we know now.
If the Knicks decline the 2021-22 option, Robinson still has a low cap hold in 2021 until he is on the new contract, either by signing directly with the Knicks or the Knicks matching an offer sheet. The Knicks would then be able to maximize their space without Robinson’s big raise weakening their flexibility. That is nice because 2021 is a loaded class.
The tradeoff would come in 2022, when Robinson would have a similarly low cap hold as an unrestricted free agent but a large number if he signed the year before. Whether the front office prefers 2022 free agency over 2021 could matter, but they would still have a lot of spending power since RJ Barrett will still be on his rookie scale contract and only Kevin Knox and Ignas Brazdekis will be restricted free agents. Even so, declining the option and making Robinson a restricted free agent in 2021 is the more logical decision.
Vorkunov: What kind of contract do you think Robinson could earn next offseason, if he did go that route? There are a lot of variables (what the cap is, how he plays next season), but is there a comp you have in mind? I think he’s definitely a productive and valuable player, but there are valid questions about how much to pay a non-shooting big who has two very good skills right now and needs a lot of work in other areas. Clint Capela earned five years and $90 million to re-sign with the Rockets two summers ago when he was a 24-year-old restricted free agent. Robinson would be 23 next offseason and three years into his career.
Leroux: Oh, man. Capela had proven more to that point than Robinson has through two seasons, but Robinson has another year to make up ground. My instinct is that a $15 million average salary works as an expected value right now, but Robinson can move that number a ton in either direction between now and then. Robinson started less than one-third of the Knicks’ games in each of his first two seasons, meaning we have not seen him in extended minutes against starters that much. Still, he has the physical talent to either establish himself in 2020-21 or entice a general manager looking to make a splash by adding a young player with upside.
While playing time and role will affect his counting stats and level of attention on him, the biggest factor affecting Robinson’s value is his defense. We have a pretty good idea of Robinson’s game offensively, but center is still a very defense-focused position, so getting a better sense of whether he can be good, very good or even elite will make a huge difference. No one will expect Robinson to be fully formed and mistake-proof on that end around his 23rd birthday (right before 2021 free agency), but he can make a ton more money in restricted free agency with a strong third season.
Vorkunov: Where do you think Robinson is right now as a defender? I’m curious if our opinions differ because of the frequency with which we each watch the Knicks. I think right now Robinson has proven he’s a good defender and is close to very good. His rebounding needs to improve, and he needs to be a better team defender. If he’s not a very good defender by the time he reaches free agency then there is less reason for the Knicks to invest a multi-year deal in him around that $15 million number annually. But if he is and you think he can be elite then he’s a definite building block.
Leroux: It is intensely hard to evaluate defense, whether we are talking eye test, film, stats/analytics or some combination of them. Fortunately, those elements largely sync up with Robinson right now: more good than great with the physical building blocks to eventually be dominant in best-case scenarios.
His rim protection is a good place to start. Blocking shots is nice and an important component, but the best defensive centers deter opponents from taking attempts around the basket far more than they block them. That did not happen much for Robinson as a rookie, partially due to things out of his control, like the Knicks’ roster. But it largely happened in 2019-20. Opponents took only 33.8 percent of their shots around the basket, per Cleaning the Glass, when he was on the floor, and took more than normal from floater range, typically a signal that they did not want to test a center.
Elite centers do even more than deter those shots and provide rim protection. Both Robinson and the Knicks commit a ton of fouls when he is on the court, giving opponents a way to score points and get into the bonus. Robinson absolutely improved by biting less on pump fakes, but he still has to become more disciplined in those situations. He committed an insane 7.7 fouls per 100 possessions as a rookie. That dropped to 6.7 this season, but that is still way too high, especially since Robinson was not facing starters full-time.
The other big flaw is rebounding. With Robinson on the floor this season, the Knicks secured only 25.3 percent of defensive rebounds, which is about league average. Considering he often played alongside another big man, that number needs to improve, especially since it was far worse the year before. The Knicks will want more shooting on the floor in future seasons, leaving more work for Robinson and Barrett (a talented rebounder for his position) to do in that phase of the game. Being more selective as a shot blocker will make a big difference, as will a greater focus on boxing out and positioning. That often happens as a young big man adjusts to the NBA and fills out his body.
Vorkunov: OK, Danny, now I want to ask you about the most divisive player on the Knicks roster: Frank Ntilikina. Lots of Knicks fans love him and lots are bearish on his future. He’ll be a restricted free agent in the offseason of 2021. Where do you stand on Ntilikina, and what kind of contract do you think he could pull down? For some reason I have Dante Exum’s three-year, $33 million extension with the Jazz in my head, though I think that’s probably not right since Exum had a worse injury history but better offensive production.
Leroux: Paralleling Exum, I was a big fan of Ntilikina’s when he was a prospect. It actually reflects one of my flaws as a draft analyst because both were a lot less valuable as NBA players if they were not able to be the primary creator for a starting five. Either could have grown into that type of initiator, but it has not happened yet, so their role needs to be much different.
Ntilikina’s defense is still his calling card, and not much has dampened my view of him on that end. But a guard who is a limited creator needs to be both a reliable off-ball shooter and opportunistic offensive player to be a viable starter. Unfortunately, he just does not check both of those boxes yet. He shot 33.7 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s last season, which is far from terrible, but probably not consistent enough for opponents to regret helping off him. Similarly, he showed improvement as a secondary option, but still needs to improve in every facet just to stay above water, much less thrive.
There is absolutely a place for Ntilikina in the NBA, even if he never figures it out offensively. But that place should not be as a starting guard until he proves a lot more than he has so far. That Jazz front office was the same one that chose Exum fifth overall and ended up regretting that contract, eventually moving him along for Jordan Clarkson. Barring a breakout performance in 2020-21, which is absolutely possible, expect Ntilikina to get less than $10 million per season either on an offer sheet or new contract with whomever holds his rights at the end of the next season.
Vorkunov: Aside from Robinson and Barrett, who should be foundational pieces for the Knicks going forward? Is there anyone else on the roster you think the new front office should make an effort to keep going forward, either because of their talent or their contract or because you see some reason they should be playing more?
Leroux: There is not anyone that I see as truly essential outside of those two, but there are a few other guys worth mentioning. Damyean Dotson showed some flashes as a jump shooter and active defender, a combination that makes sense in a guard rotation, even if starting is probably asking too much. Typically, non-star restricted free agents get squeezed by the matching process, so it is entirely possible for the Knicks to bring him back at a reasonable price.
Dennis Smith Jr.’s physical potential excited me going all the way back to high school, but a variety of challenges on and off the court have side-tracked his professional career. The balancing act with Smith: avoid extending him, have sufficient depth at point guard ahead of him, and still give him chances in the rotation when he is ready for it. If things work out, the front office could use Bird rights or even match rights to bring him back without having to commit to anything unless and until he proves it. It would also be nice to see more of Brazdeikis with the main club, especially since even low-end rotation players would be a huge help for a franchise that needs so much depth at the top and bottom of their lineup.
Considering the Knicks look to be well out of the playoff picture for 2020-21, their next coach will have to balance putting the foundational pieces in a place to succeed, or even just be evaluated reasonably, but there will still be opportunities for Ntilikina, Dotson, Brazdeikis, Smith and their 2020 picks to see what they can bring to the table now and down the line.
- Status
