seemorecizzy
Superstar
mitch is not untouchable
Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread
- Thread starter DPresidential
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Ironman
#Knickstape
I'm genuinely curious why not?
You going off the deep end with this take
Real N Quotes
East Is In The House OMG
This 
for Plop Plop Fiz Fiz is ridiculous 
He Sucks
With that being said Mills and Perry need to go too
They failed
Just play the kids and tank
for Plop Plop Fiz Fiz is ridiculous He Sucks
With that being said Mills and Perry need to go too
They failed
Just play the kids and tank
storyteller
Veteran
The Knicks went down 28 points on their home court for the fourth time in 8 games before another "too little, too late" comeback attempt against the San Antonio Spurs. Don't let the 111-104 score fool you into thinking this was a competitive game, New York came out lethargic from the beginning. The three point defense failed again and that meant every time New York started to pick up some momentum, they'd give up a back breaking three pointer or two...sometimes more. The Knicks are approaching a quarter of the season down and something's got to give if they continue to make these low energy, horrendous performances a routine. It's not normal to go down by 30 with this sort of frequency and against the caliber of teams that the Knicks have done so against. The Spurs were on an 8 game losing streak, struggling against any and everyone...but they blew the Knicks off of the court. Let's search for bright spots
Ntilikina: One of the bright spots for the Knicks was the starting backcourt. Frank Ntilikina was able to distinguish himself once again as a defensive force and clever playmaking for his teammates. The French Prince did miss open looks throughout the night but wasn't hesitant to take them which is a step in the right direction. He put up 9 points, 9 assists to 0 turnovers, 3 boards and 6 steals on 3/9 shooting and 1/4 from three.
For Frank to truly solidify a starting role in the future, he'll have to convert the open looks. But the first step to converting them is being willing to take those shots. During a frantic attempt at a comeback, Frank knocked down a three pointer after having missed a number of good looks. That's what we're looking for from the kid, it's a first step toward consistency.
This is broken record stuff, but it'd be unfair not to mention how good Frank was defensively. His six steals combined with some great defense on shooters and forced TO's by drawing a charge and forcing guys to pick up their dribble with no place to go. That led to some thrown away passes that didn't net him any marks on the stat sheet. The impact is just incredible. Add 9 assists without a single turnover and you can live with Frank's jumper being off.
Barrett: RJ Barrett quietly put together a very nice statline in 29 minutes of play. On a team riddled with inconsistency, Barrett seems to always find a way to piece together a good performance. The third pick in the draft put up 13 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists along with a steal and a block. He did so on 5/11 shooting as well though he was 0/2 from three and 1/4 from the free throw line.
The jumper wasn't there for the rookie last night, but he still found ways to be productive. Barrett is a strong, crafty down hill player and he got into the lane a number of times for finishes or drawn fouls. He also made some nice passes when he drew defenders. It's a little frustrating that he's not seeing more opportunities to create because good things tend to happen when he has the rock. The free throw thing is just bizarre though.
Morris: It felt like Marcus Morris forced things more than his stat-line shows, maybe due to a lack of any playmaking. Morris was still the Knicks most reliable scorer and did so with real efficiency when all was said and done. The almost Spur dropped 20 points and 7 rebounds on 7/14 shooting and 4/6 from three.
The blemish for Morris is 0 assists and 2 turnovers. Some of his misses came at times where a kick out or a reset would be a better choice. But it's hard to be too mad about it when he's shooting lights out and playing solid defense. I'd like to see him look to create more with the amount of attention he draws, but it's clear that we need him to find his rhythm to give the Knicks much needed scoring.
Randle: All too often I find myself thinking that we're asking Julius Randle to do way too much that doesn't fit his skillset. I've probably used more words on Randle's struggles initiating things from the perimeter than I've written about Frank's defense this season. But someone at the Knicks organization seems insistent on making this work. The turnovers and bad shots lead to transition lay-ups or threes that break the Knicks momentum.
To top it off, Randle's defensive effort has been inconsistent and more often than not detrimental. Even at times when he tried to step up defensively last night, his effort was marred by poor decisions. So Lamarcus Aldridge gets an open 3 off of a lazy rotation in one play and then two free throws off overzealous play the next...and that's how the Knicks fourth quarter comeback attempt dies with Julius Randle defending.
The 20 million dollar man put up 14 points on 6/17 shooting, 17 field goal attempts for 14 points. He added 8 boards and 3 assists to the mix but also notched 4 turnovers and 5 fouls. The Knicks have made a lot of tweaks and adjustments but the elephant in the room is that they haven't done anything to change how Julius Randle is playing out there and it comes back to bite them far too often.
Taj: Although Taj Gibson drew another start, he only logged 10 minutes of play and that's not because of foul trouble. He put up 3 boards, 1 assist, 1 steal and 1 turnover in the limited time and it's hard to say much when he barely got any action.
DSJ: Dennis Smith Jr feels like he's finding his way, but not quite there yet. In the second half against the Spurs, Smith put together a number of nice plays and knocked down a three ball for good measure. It was a flash of his potential as an instant spark off the bench. Smith put up 7 points and 4 assists in just 15 minutes of play. He was 3/7 from the field in that span and made 1/2 at the three point line.
It's not production that leaps off of the stat sheet, but DSJ's bursts of athleticism do shine when you watch him play. The kid has explosiveness that gets him past defenders and in a position to finish or kick the ball out whenever he sees space. Refinement comes in keeping his foot on the pedal while remaining under control. You didn't see the explosions until the second half last night but he played good, instinctual ball even when he was flying.
Dot: Another night of struggling with his jumper caused Dot to see a dip in minutes as Wayne Ellington stole his thunder. Dotson did make his way into the paint for a nice lay-up but his jumper belongs on milk cartons right now. In 16 minutes Dot had 4 points, 1 assist and 1 steal off of 2/6 shooting and 0/3 from three.
I love Dot's motor and effort out there, but the jumper will limit his time because he doesn't have a definitive trait to fall back on besides effort. He's a jack of all trades, master of none but without the jumper none of the other tools can hit full utility.
Ellington: When the Knicks needed to fight back from a big deficit, Wayne Ellington was able to flash his value by knocking down a number of three point attempts. It wasn't anything flashy, just a flurry of three pointers in a short amount of time that reminded everyone why Ellington can be a useful weapon off of the bench. In 21 minutes Ellington dropped 13 points, 1 assist and 1 boards off of 4/11 shooting and all four makes coming from 10 attempted threes.
Ellington is a pure floor strecher and a microwave. His numbers have been deceptively bad this season and he's absolutely a streaky player. He goes in the game to shoot and when the jumper isn't falling you can try something else. But when that three ball is falling, Ellington can shoot you into a game you had no business being close in.
Knox: The frustrating thing about Kevin Knox struggling so badly on defense that he can't get off the bench, is that he's shown some new wrinkles offensively that I really would like to explore but he's not doing it enough to warrant playing time if the Knicks are fighting for wins rather than focusing on development. Knox put up 2 points, 1 assist and 3 boards on 1/4 shooting and 0/2 from three.
So how did I come away from that curious about Knox offensively? He made two really beautiful reads and passes. One was a pick and roll, Ntilikina style skip pass for an assist. On another foray into the paint, Knox made a cross court read to find a wide open shooter in the corner. That stuff is exciting to see from a kid that has shown potential as a quality scorer in the past.
Here's the thing though...his defense has been tough to watch. The footwork's not there, the lateral movement is poor and it gets exacerbated by bad instincts on the defensive end as well. Even offensively, Knox is a work in progress when it comes to the game slowing down but his instincts and tools keep him comfortably above water. On the defensive end, the tools aren't there.
It's not time to give up on the kid's defense though. We can look at Frank Ntilikina for an example of serious growth happening in the blink of an eye with a super young player.
Portis: On a night when most players seemed plain lazy, there was Bobby Portis out running every other big man for a transition dunk. This dude's effort level has been an endearing quality even when his decision making can sometimes frustrate. Portis scored 16 much needed points on 6/11 shooting and 4/6 from three in just 20 minutes of action. He also gave the Knicks 2 boards and 2 assists in that span.
There was a period in the second quarter, where Fiz tried to keep Portis out there with Randle and Morris back...still doesn't really work. But I wasn't mad at Fizdale because I got what he was trying to do. Portis injected some life into the Knicks during an otherwise listless performance. Fiz tried to get some of that for his starters too. Anyway, thanks for the effort Bobby. We see you!
Mitch: Speaking of effort, I caught deja-vu watching Mitchell Robinson limp run up the floor and dunk. It's obvious that Mitch hasn't fully recovered from rolling his ankle against Dallas. He literally can't hide the pain at some junctures of games. What's incredible, is he's still playing at a high level.
In 24 minutes, Robinson posted 6 points, 4 boards, 4 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks. The sophomore was limping early on and only went 2/3 shooting, he didn't get many opportunities to be the rim running nightmare that we're used to. But that's what makes his beefed up stat line across 5 categories so impressive. His defensive presence is still there and he kept it to just 2 fouls during his run.
Also notable, Mitch is probably one of our better free throw shooters right now. The team went 9/15 on another subpar night, but Mitch was money at 2/2 from the line...what I'm saying is there's hope for RJ yet as a free throw shooter.
Fiz: There's this looming question that I've already alluded to that hangs like a black cloud over a lot of promising developments from David Fizdale. I think he's shown much more propensity to hold players accountable on the defensive end this season than last. The rotation has solidified and players like Frank, RJ and Smith are starting look comfortable in expanding roles. Fiz is also a lot quicker to call a time out when things start to get ugly, which I appreciate seeing.
But all of the tweaks in the world and every experiment so far has ignored that elephant in the room from before. Julius Randle is making a heap of money and whether it's coming from upstairs or by Fizdale's own choosing, Randle doesn't fit the feature role that he's been asked to play. The Knicks need Randle to be productive for success, that's absolutely true. But the way he's being utilized simply has not worked.
You could make the case that Trier and Iggy not getting a shot in another lethargic near blow out is a problem, but I didn't mind the idea Fizdale came with. He spread the floor with Dot and Ellington, his two best off ball movement players. It was clever and it worked. That's a combo that I'd like to see employed more often. DSJ and Frank also paired up for a brief stint, loved it. Fizdale is making some nice decisions and interesting combinations at times...
But if he can't or won't hold Randle accountable on bad nights, then the good decisions will pale in comparison to this one obvious issue.
Ntilikina: One of the bright spots for the Knicks was the starting backcourt. Frank Ntilikina was able to distinguish himself once again as a defensive force and clever playmaking for his teammates. The French Prince did miss open looks throughout the night but wasn't hesitant to take them which is a step in the right direction. He put up 9 points, 9 assists to 0 turnovers, 3 boards and 6 steals on 3/9 shooting and 1/4 from three.
For Frank to truly solidify a starting role in the future, he'll have to convert the open looks. But the first step to converting them is being willing to take those shots. During a frantic attempt at a comeback, Frank knocked down a three pointer after having missed a number of good looks. That's what we're looking for from the kid, it's a first step toward consistency.
This is broken record stuff, but it'd be unfair not to mention how good Frank was defensively. His six steals combined with some great defense on shooters and forced TO's by drawing a charge and forcing guys to pick up their dribble with no place to go. That led to some thrown away passes that didn't net him any marks on the stat sheet. The impact is just incredible. Add 9 assists without a single turnover and you can live with Frank's jumper being off.
Barrett: RJ Barrett quietly put together a very nice statline in 29 minutes of play. On a team riddled with inconsistency, Barrett seems to always find a way to piece together a good performance. The third pick in the draft put up 13 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists along with a steal and a block. He did so on 5/11 shooting as well though he was 0/2 from three and 1/4 from the free throw line.
The jumper wasn't there for the rookie last night, but he still found ways to be productive. Barrett is a strong, crafty down hill player and he got into the lane a number of times for finishes or drawn fouls. He also made some nice passes when he drew defenders. It's a little frustrating that he's not seeing more opportunities to create because good things tend to happen when he has the rock. The free throw thing is just bizarre though.
Morris: It felt like Marcus Morris forced things more than his stat-line shows, maybe due to a lack of any playmaking. Morris was still the Knicks most reliable scorer and did so with real efficiency when all was said and done. The almost Spur dropped 20 points and 7 rebounds on 7/14 shooting and 4/6 from three.
The blemish for Morris is 0 assists and 2 turnovers. Some of his misses came at times where a kick out or a reset would be a better choice. But it's hard to be too mad about it when he's shooting lights out and playing solid defense. I'd like to see him look to create more with the amount of attention he draws, but it's clear that we need him to find his rhythm to give the Knicks much needed scoring.
Randle: All too often I find myself thinking that we're asking Julius Randle to do way too much that doesn't fit his skillset. I've probably used more words on Randle's struggles initiating things from the perimeter than I've written about Frank's defense this season. But someone at the Knicks organization seems insistent on making this work. The turnovers and bad shots lead to transition lay-ups or threes that break the Knicks momentum.
To top it off, Randle's defensive effort has been inconsistent and more often than not detrimental. Even at times when he tried to step up defensively last night, his effort was marred by poor decisions. So Lamarcus Aldridge gets an open 3 off of a lazy rotation in one play and then two free throws off overzealous play the next...and that's how the Knicks fourth quarter comeback attempt dies with Julius Randle defending.
The 20 million dollar man put up 14 points on 6/17 shooting, 17 field goal attempts for 14 points. He added 8 boards and 3 assists to the mix but also notched 4 turnovers and 5 fouls. The Knicks have made a lot of tweaks and adjustments but the elephant in the room is that they haven't done anything to change how Julius Randle is playing out there and it comes back to bite them far too often.
Taj: Although Taj Gibson drew another start, he only logged 10 minutes of play and that's not because of foul trouble. He put up 3 boards, 1 assist, 1 steal and 1 turnover in the limited time and it's hard to say much when he barely got any action.
DSJ: Dennis Smith Jr feels like he's finding his way, but not quite there yet. In the second half against the Spurs, Smith put together a number of nice plays and knocked down a three ball for good measure. It was a flash of his potential as an instant spark off the bench. Smith put up 7 points and 4 assists in just 15 minutes of play. He was 3/7 from the field in that span and made 1/2 at the three point line.
It's not production that leaps off of the stat sheet, but DSJ's bursts of athleticism do shine when you watch him play. The kid has explosiveness that gets him past defenders and in a position to finish or kick the ball out whenever he sees space. Refinement comes in keeping his foot on the pedal while remaining under control. You didn't see the explosions until the second half last night but he played good, instinctual ball even when he was flying.
Dot: Another night of struggling with his jumper caused Dot to see a dip in minutes as Wayne Ellington stole his thunder. Dotson did make his way into the paint for a nice lay-up but his jumper belongs on milk cartons right now. In 16 minutes Dot had 4 points, 1 assist and 1 steal off of 2/6 shooting and 0/3 from three.
I love Dot's motor and effort out there, but the jumper will limit his time because he doesn't have a definitive trait to fall back on besides effort. He's a jack of all trades, master of none but without the jumper none of the other tools can hit full utility.
Ellington: When the Knicks needed to fight back from a big deficit, Wayne Ellington was able to flash his value by knocking down a number of three point attempts. It wasn't anything flashy, just a flurry of three pointers in a short amount of time that reminded everyone why Ellington can be a useful weapon off of the bench. In 21 minutes Ellington dropped 13 points, 1 assist and 1 boards off of 4/11 shooting and all four makes coming from 10 attempted threes.
Ellington is a pure floor strecher and a microwave. His numbers have been deceptively bad this season and he's absolutely a streaky player. He goes in the game to shoot and when the jumper isn't falling you can try something else. But when that three ball is falling, Ellington can shoot you into a game you had no business being close in.
Knox: The frustrating thing about Kevin Knox struggling so badly on defense that he can't get off the bench, is that he's shown some new wrinkles offensively that I really would like to explore but he's not doing it enough to warrant playing time if the Knicks are fighting for wins rather than focusing on development. Knox put up 2 points, 1 assist and 3 boards on 1/4 shooting and 0/2 from three.
So how did I come away from that curious about Knox offensively? He made two really beautiful reads and passes. One was a pick and roll, Ntilikina style skip pass for an assist. On another foray into the paint, Knox made a cross court read to find a wide open shooter in the corner. That stuff is exciting to see from a kid that has shown potential as a quality scorer in the past.
Here's the thing though...his defense has been tough to watch. The footwork's not there, the lateral movement is poor and it gets exacerbated by bad instincts on the defensive end as well. Even offensively, Knox is a work in progress when it comes to the game slowing down but his instincts and tools keep him comfortably above water. On the defensive end, the tools aren't there.
It's not time to give up on the kid's defense though. We can look at Frank Ntilikina for an example of serious growth happening in the blink of an eye with a super young player.
Portis: On a night when most players seemed plain lazy, there was Bobby Portis out running every other big man for a transition dunk. This dude's effort level has been an endearing quality even when his decision making can sometimes frustrate. Portis scored 16 much needed points on 6/11 shooting and 4/6 from three in just 20 minutes of action. He also gave the Knicks 2 boards and 2 assists in that span.
There was a period in the second quarter, where Fiz tried to keep Portis out there with Randle and Morris back...still doesn't really work. But I wasn't mad at Fizdale because I got what he was trying to do. Portis injected some life into the Knicks during an otherwise listless performance. Fiz tried to get some of that for his starters too. Anyway, thanks for the effort Bobby. We see you!
Mitch: Speaking of effort, I caught deja-vu watching Mitchell Robinson limp run up the floor and dunk. It's obvious that Mitch hasn't fully recovered from rolling his ankle against Dallas. He literally can't hide the pain at some junctures of games. What's incredible, is he's still playing at a high level.
In 24 minutes, Robinson posted 6 points, 4 boards, 4 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks. The sophomore was limping early on and only went 2/3 shooting, he didn't get many opportunities to be the rim running nightmare that we're used to. But that's what makes his beefed up stat line across 5 categories so impressive. His defensive presence is still there and he kept it to just 2 fouls during his run.
Also notable, Mitch is probably one of our better free throw shooters right now. The team went 9/15 on another subpar night, but Mitch was money at 2/2 from the line...what I'm saying is there's hope for RJ yet as a free throw shooter.
Fiz: There's this looming question that I've already alluded to that hangs like a black cloud over a lot of promising developments from David Fizdale. I think he's shown much more propensity to hold players accountable on the defensive end this season than last. The rotation has solidified and players like Frank, RJ and Smith are starting look comfortable in expanding roles. Fiz is also a lot quicker to call a time out when things start to get ugly, which I appreciate seeing.
But all of the tweaks in the world and every experiment so far has ignored that elephant in the room from before. Julius Randle is making a heap of money and whether it's coming from upstairs or by Fizdale's own choosing, Randle doesn't fit the feature role that he's been asked to play. The Knicks need Randle to be productive for success, that's absolutely true. But the way he's being utilized simply has not worked.
You could make the case that Trier and Iggy not getting a shot in another lethargic near blow out is a problem, but I didn't mind the idea Fizdale came with. He spread the floor with Dot and Ellington, his two best off ball movement players. It was clever and it worked. That's a combo that I'd like to see employed more often. DSJ and Frank also paired up for a brief stint, loved it. Fizdale is making some nice decisions and interesting combinations at times...
But if he can't or won't hold Randle accountable on bad nights, then the good decisions will pale in comparison to this one obvious issue.
seemorecizzy
Superstar
how good do you think mitch can be?I'm genuinely curious why not?
his ceiling seems to be another deandre jordan.
untouchable means you literally wouldnt trade him for any other players in da league lmao
thats extreme to.me.
this team is trash, anyone can go for da right price
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
Ironman
#Knickstape
Deandre Jordan can't shoot. We've seen Mitch actually attempt and hit shots. Defensively a DJ maybe and there's nothing wrong with that but he has untapped potential offensively in my opinion. I've seen him do a little dribble ro get to the paint he just hasn't put that together yet. Also, he's 20 that be foolish to just trade him like that.
seemorecizzy
Superstar
i never said trade him "like that"
i said hes not untouchable
and im sure deandre jordan hits open shots in practice as well
Deep_Black_Conscious
Superstar
lol breh relax just a suggestion for draft timeYou're just repeating the same crazy nonsense I called crazy before. You think Mitch is untouchable... But you think you might pull the trigger for the POSSIBILITY of a lottery pick. My nikkas didn't we just learn from the last lottery?
And you saying RJ is untouchable, but willing to break up a team with one of the best wing defenders in the league and one of the best rim protectors in the league for a player you might not even get.
right now it's too early and I want the knicks to focus on frank, rj , knox, and mitch
trier and dotson are unknowns and i don't think trier comes back and I wouldn't blame him
I might pull the trigger for a lottery pick depending on if the knicks get wiseman and who they
could get with that extra pick
For example, Wiseman, RJ, and LaMelo/Cole or Wiseman, RJ, and Antman sounds intriguing
You should always try to make your team better and not play favorites
For example, if 5 years from now RJ doesn't live up to expectations, he is no longer untouchable too
(watch him ball out on another team of course)
if the knicks only get say lamelo/cole/edwards w/ the current young core that's also fine
frank/edwards/rj/knox/mitch looks solid
plus a pg like lamelo or maybe cole alongside rj can unlock mitch's full potential
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Ironman
#Knickstape
Deep_Black_Conscious
Superstar
Deandre ain't practicing 3s fam nor does his jumper look nearly as fluid
mitch has a lot of potential
I have big expectations for him in his 3rd year
Frank is starting to breakout this year and I think mitch can too
But mitch can only ride on potential for so long
tremonthustler1
aka bx_representer
Jordan at his peak was a first team all-NBA center, all-star and all-defense.
If Mitch is anywhere close to that, keep him and don't let him leave. Y'all overthink this shyt.
Deep_Black_Conscious
Superstar
Mitch is not untouchable for the right price
However, I'd give him another 2-3 years of development to see what he can become as a player
Defensively he can be a monster and offensively we don't know what the ceiling is just yet
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