Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread

[IGSaint12]

I can't see a system where the players on this Knicks roster will do well. They are just not that good and don't fit together.

 

[Columbo]

The Celtics and Nets had an identity during their rebuilding years. Coaches Atkinson and Brad Stevens never any excuses. They both got the best out of all their players

The problem is more then just Fizdale but hes definitely a part of the problem

 

[RubioTheCruel]

I can't see a system where the players on this Knicks roster will do well. They are just not that good and don't fit together.

It's an ill-fitting roster with no PG, but they can't put the ball in the basket. Kinda hard to win when you can't do that. Last in offensive rating, FG%, 2 PT FG%, FT %.

 

[nyknick]

Looks like Fiz is going to get canned y’all should be ashamed of y’all selves

This is what y’all wanted right?

I'm not a big Fiz fan but unfortunately that's the only way anything will change

It won't change right away though. We're still going to be terrible with a new coach and then maybe something happens to Pills.

Probably re-assigned to a different position in MSG.

 

[storyteller]

these things wouldnt need "fixing" if these players werent brought in in the first place
mills made a mess and u mad at fizz for not fixing it to your liking

They could also be fixed by having a competent coach...that's the damned point. The FO screwed up, hell yeah. But you know who took a bad situation and made it worse?

- The guy who hasn't installed an offense since he got here almost 100 games ago.
- The guy who puts the ball in the perceived best player's hands and just lets that guy do has he pleases, just like last season with Timmy.
- The guy who doesn't run out properly spaced line-ups dating back to last season as well.
- The guy who hasn't put out a consistent rotation yet (again dating back to last season).

You can't just blame the FO and the players when it's always been billed as a young developing team. WTF is the point of the "developing" part if you just excuse the coach of any responsibility for actually developing the players.

 

[ogc163]

I hope he doesn't make it past the end of next week. Fire this bum, and then fire the FO. Let the young dudes get most of the minutes, keep it a buck with a vets that they can either mentor the youth while taking a backseat or play a active role in seeking out trades.

I'll be happy I won't have to watch this no set running, no defensive philosophy bum anymore. Dudes liked this dudes narrative and gift of the gab. There was nothing in Memphis that warranted all the crying when he got fired. That's not to imply it was absolutely right, but dude wasn't killing it out there.

 

[Columbo]

I'm not a big Fiz fan but unfortunately that's the only way anything will change

It won't change right away though. We're still going to be terrible with a new coach and then maybe something happens to Pills.

Probably re-assigned to a different position in MSG.

With a name like Pills they better keep him away from the food and beverage department

 

[storyteller]

Yall need to protest that front office..They are pulling a fast one

The Dolan order of operations...they get a mulligan on the first coach but if the second one fails, the FO gets fired but he keeps the new coach for the next GM to be stuck with for another season before the cycle resets.

Everyone should go, but for now at least Mike Miller had players show growth when he got them in the G-League. It's not an ideal situation but in the offseason they can clean house and set up completely fresh.

 

[storyteller]

I hope he doesn't make it past the end of next week. Fire this bum, and then fire the FO. Let the young dudes get most of the minutes, keep it a buck with a vets that they can either mentor the youth while taking a backseat or play a active role in seeking out trades.

I'll be happy I won't have to watch this no set running, no defensive philosophy bum anymore. Dudes liked this dudes narrative and gift of the gab. There was nothing in Memphis that warranted all the crying when he got fired. That's not to imply it was absolutely right, but dude wasn't killing it out there.

Fam I tried to warn these heads that I had reasons for concern. They poo poo'ed it.
I pointed out all the red flags last season. They blamed the players.
Now it's all the exact same issues with a third group of players for this guy and it's still everybody but his fault.

I just want the Knicks to play modern basketball at this point. ANY coach could do that with a few rotation tweaks. They'll still lose but the young guys can find their roles and the Vets can try to pump their values for trades. That was what I expected from the outset of this season. Vets in situations that accentuate their skillsets to try and convince a team to give us assets for them. Youth in roles that they can comfortably grow into. None of that has happened.

 

[The War Report]

How many coaches have The Knicks ran through? It ain’t the coach. It’s deeper than that.

 

[seemorecizzy]

They could also be fixed by having a competent coach...that's the damned point. The FO screwed up, hell yeah. But you know who took a bad situation and made it worse?

- The guy who hasn't installed an offense since he got here almost 100 games ago.
- The guy who puts the ball in the perceived best player's hands and just lets that guy do has he pleases, just like last season with Timmy.
- The guy who doesn't run out properly spaced line-ups dating back to last season as well.
- The guy who hasn't put out a consistent rotation yet (again dating back to last season).

You can't just blame the FO and the players when it's always been billed as a young developing team. WTF is the point of the "developing" part if you just excuse the coach of any responsibility for actually developing the players.

you don't seem to understand that we had the same issue last year. a mismatched roster with players that don't fit together. Which is why we won 17 games.
instead of going in the opposite direction, mills decided to make a even more complicated roster this year with even less shooting than last year and log jams everywhere.

you keep saying we don't develop players, but at the same time, knox trier mitch all had better den expected seasons last year and rj barrett has looked great. your all over the place

 

[RickyGQ]

 

[K-ZOE]

Easy compared to the next 9 games. Brooklyn is the only team under .500 that we're going to play

There are no easy games for this squad. We will have a worse record than whoever we play. We can't defend and we have no offense.
But semantically I see your point.

 

[storyteller]

you don't seem to understand that we had the same issue last year. a mismatched roster with players that don't fit together. Which is why we won 17 games.
instead of going in the opposite direction, mills decided to make a even more complicated roster this year with even less shooting than last year and log jams everywhere.

you keep saying we don't develop players, but at the same time, knox trier mitch all had better den expected seasons last year and rj barrett has looked great. your all over the place

None of this is even true

You mixing me up for someone? Lemme remind you that you and I have had this exact discussion and I called BS that Fiz deserves credit for any of the youth the first time too. In bold is where I pointed out the direction this season could go in and it's EXACTLY what's happening imo. But also notable, I have never given Fiz credit for that crap you bring up to defend him. I actively refuted it and we moved on with "agree to disagree" but I definitely warned about Fiz potentially struggling to set a rotation, build a system for the players to settle into and appeasing vets even when it hurts the team. I said that I'd be mad if that happened; it's happening; I'm mad about it...I've been consistent on this.

I think this is the wrong way to look at it because, like you said


And putting players into consistent roles with a clear identity, they can start to develop habits that compliment the roles they're asked to play (ie: the one reliable bit of the playbook was that EVERYONE was gonna be a pick and roll ball handler; so everyone got better at handling pick and rolls. Dotson the most but even Trier who had tunnel vision in virtually all other circumstances).

- Mudiay didn't show anything but some scoring upside, it was his worst season as a playmaker since he was a rookie. He got a minimum contract to be a third string PG. That's not something to brag about especially for a 24 year old. That's a "Prove it" deal and the lowest risk possible that a GM will take on a player barring a two-way contract. Lance Thomas is making more than him next year. What does that tell you?

- Trier didn't actually develop anything that wasn't there from day one. He showed flashes of passing but more often had tunnel vision and his scoring acumen was there from Summer league. I did credit him for trying to figure out playmaking but he was lost more often than not when he did that. He also never developed much movement off ball in spite of having strong catch and shoot numbers. So they asked him to work on his C&S and increase his three pointers in the offseason since he didn't develop that stuff in season. A different role or play calls could have encouraged that work in season.

- Mitch's improvement unlocked when Deandre Jordan started mentoring him. That's because he reduced his fouling, but other than that his numbers improved with his minutes, that's it. Even in this past summer league, the way he sets screens is concerning and the face up game will be strictly on summer work if it appears.

- Knox got a ton of minutes but showed almost no actual growth in awareness on either side of the ball. His passing numbers were a red flag they were so low and defensive metrics absolutely hate him. We're counting on the offseason film sessions he talked about for that growth.

- Dotson did develop, I'll give him that. We can throw in Vonleh too, he did show improvement but also only got a 1 yr deal (at least they paid slightly above minimum though). Hezonja is the only one from the younger group to get more than a one year contract on the way out, so if we're pinning success on anyone thanks to Fiz...After Dotson, it's him.

So the best arguments for Fizdale's development success (I ain't giving you Mitch when DJ correlates with his foul woes slowing down and that's the only actual growth we saw everything else was there from the jump) are Dotson (25), Hezonja (24) and Vonleh (24). No one else actually grew in season. We're relying on offseason regiment for everyone else, the younger players...who also have contracts that aren't expiring. Seriously open your damned eyes instead of honing in on Frank and pretending Mudiay had a coming out party that no GM was willing to risk anything more than the minimum on. It's ridiculous. You guys get worked up over excuses for Frank, but yall got plenty for Fizdale.

If Frank plays soft again, go ahead and trash him. Same with Fizdale though. If he establishes an identity for the team and sets a consistent rotation, then I'll give him the credit for it. If he still experiments, shuffles line-ups constantly, and if he appeases vets even when they don't appear to be the best option (ie: the Enes Kanter debacle) then keep the same energy.

I'm comfortable saying Frank was BAD last season. So was Fizdale. Both showed some promising signs and some red flags. I do pros and cons with every player after damn near every game fam.

And then I went on to say...

I'll give Mitch that his role was defined by the end of the season. But we went Iso-Zo all year and than his offseason comments pertained to learning to be a better off-ball player which is kinda what I mean. In a season where we sucked, they coulda pushed him in that direction even if he struggled since the wins didn't matter. Same for Knox and Frank. Agreed about Mitch showing potential prior to DJ too, but it took a mentor for that clique for him. I feel the same way about FIBA Frank. The improvements appeared when someone else stepped in rather than Fizdale.

Again that's not to say Fizdale definitely sucks, we just haven't seen development that gives me confidence in him yet. This offseason and season will really tell us the story. Same for Frank. I just like to point out the red flags because the pattern of not being able to set a rotation wound up being problematic for both Fish and Hornacek before that. Woody for his flaws as an offensive coach had a fairly set rotation and roles, plus a legit defensive scheme. His teams weren't good but they were more cohesive for it. Frank HAS to improve as a shooter this season and HAS to be more aggressive, or patience runs out. If he's still timid, he's a defensive specialist at best. If Fizdale's red flags continue he's probably Mark Jackson at best, the guy who gives the young guys confidence but needs someone else to step in and finish the developmental job.

 

[RickyGQ]

I don’t know how i feel putting this all on Fiz when it feels like he’s just doing what the FO is asking him to do. They’ve tried to sign guys as reclamation projects to trade or make the organization look good but they did it at the hindrance of the development of their own players. There isn’t a system in the world that can make Morris and Randle and RJ fit together, not to mention in less than a month.
You can’t give him this fukked up team and then blame him when the shyt doesn’t work. Now if Pills told him he could do what he wants, and Fiz’s solution is what we’re seeing then fine, but i seriously can’t believe NO ONE on that bench doesn’t know that he has to bench Randle or Morris. If Fiz goes they all gotta go.