Rakim Talks About The Making of the Classic "Follow The Leader"

[The Ruler 09]

I might write a Hip Hop book one day, probably several. I've read some dope ones, I enjoyed Kool Moe Dee's book a lot, I've read most of them, what are some of the best ones do people reckon?

 

[Rakim Allah]

I would say the writer need to get off Jay-z's dikk when writing about the god Rakim, but then I realized its Complex and that would be like asking a cop to come up off the donut

Yeah the writer was reaching with that intro and Jay Z.

 

[Rakim Allah]

I might write a Hip Hop book one day, probably several. I've read some dope ones, I enjoyed Kool Moe Dee's book a lot, I've read most of them, what are some of the best ones do people reckon?

Yeah that Moe Dee book is classic even though I may disagree with some of the EMCEEs on HIS list.

Few other Hip Hop related books I enjoyed were

It's Not About A Salary: rap. race + resistance in Los Angeles 1993 by Brian Cross
Classic Material: The Hip Hop Album Guide 2003 edited by Oliver Wang foreword by Dante Ross
Def Jam Inc 2005 by Stacy Gueraseva
LL Cool J: I Make My Own Rules 1997 aka The Book Canibus Bought To Read by Karen Hunter

If you're looking for rare and hard to find Hip Hop 12's from the 80s

Freddy Fresh Presents The Rap Records: The Ultimate Vinyl Resource Book 2004

Great book on Funk music

Funk: The Music, the People, the Rhythm of The One by Rickey Vincent foreword by George Clinton 1996

 

[Art Barr]

Does your rhyme scheme come from those sources as well? You really moved hip-hop from one lines rhyming at the end of a line to having internal rhymes and rhymes referencing each other two, three lines later. Did you have that evolution in your rap style or did you always rhyme like that from the beginning?
Nah, that kind of came about as I was learning. I started learning different ways to write. I don’t know how to explain this, but I guess it’s evident now, when I tried to explain it to somebody before they were looking at me like I was crazy, but I write down the paper. Like I write the rhyme across the paper, but the next bar, I’m rhyming everything all the way down the paper till I get to the end. That’s where the internal rhyme scheme came from, trying to rhyme the words in between.

What I thought I was doing was just writing down the paper, if it makes sense. But it came out kinda crazy. I don’t know if you heard one of the joints from Lost and Found, but I did this joint “Love 4 Sale” and if you listen to that it’s so internal that it goes all the way through the verse. The inner rhymes. Just having fun and hoping that someone will pick it up later on and say, “Oh you see what he did! He rhymed from the top.” Matter fact, I think it was all three verses, the internal rhymes rhymed off the same word. It’s just having fun and hoping people pick up on it and see that I put extra time into what I do.

I really think that’s the difference—how much you invest in each song. That’s why I think a lot of people are frustrated with the fact that you never put out more records. But, it seems like that had a lot to do with the fact that you put so much effort into each song.
Word up. I think that too. It got to a point where it seemed like there were always set backs and something going wrong. If it wasn’t me and Eric B., it was the label changing their staff. It seemed like there was always a setback. So after awhile, I just felt that things were taking place the way it was supposed to.

Did your relationship with music change?
Nah, not at all. That’s something I’m gonna love forever. I grew up around it. I think it was my first love, even before sports, when I was a little baby my mom would play it. That was my first love. Still to this day. It’s crazy, I wish I had more material out there as well, it’s one of the things where as I'm closing up my legacy it’s one of the things I wish I did more of, put more records out. Things happen for a reason and you gotta live with it.

Tell me about “Lyrics of Fury.” What was in your mind when you came up with that? Did you hear the record first or did you come up with the concept before that?
Yeah I came up with the concept. That was a George Clinton record that my brother Stevie Blast played. He used to play the keyboards on a bunch of my albums. But when I was coming up young, we would share rooms and he would play a lot of George Clinton. I came up on that as well. There was this one song he used to play, which was “No Head, No Backstage Pass.” But the sounds of it, man. I remember after I started rapping, I heard it again one time, but I didn’t have access, and I was just like, “Wow, that would be a crazy sample.” It just sounded so mean, nah mean?

Finally, I went through my brother’s collection when he came back and left his records there. My mom had this big wall in the basement so he brought everything back and put it on the wall. I found the record and sampled it up and the sound of the record is what made me come up with the concept. It just sounds like one of the meanest samples that I had heard at that point.

Especially when you’re doing an album, you want a couple records on there that you can air out. I always look for one, on the other album it was “The Punisher.” I always have one on there where I can beast out. Let all that aggression out. I never like to point one MC out, but I would just say something and let all of them know, that was my way of doing my thing.

That’s what made you famous, that "seven MCs in a line" line.
Word up. We used to battle back in the day and it was always you against one. After you win a couple of those, you’re like, “I could take on a crew!” It’s that snowball effect. But I started writing my rhymes like, “I don’t have to concentrate on you. That shyt you said in your rhyme was cute but I ain’t even thinking about that. This dude over here, you ain’t even ready yet.” So my thing was that I was just writing rhymes and if somebody feels a certain way about it then good, that’s what I want.

One of the things that made Bob Marley great was that not only was he an incredible lyricist and performer but he grew up in a moment in Jamaican music where he sampled everything. He was born just at the right time to capture ska and one drop and every time the music changed he was born in the right time. When I look at your career, I think about the fact that you were born at the time where hip-hop was coming up and corporate America hadn’t gotten its grips on it yet, but it was past the basic level of the house parties and park jams.
No rules yet.

So you were a part of what was creating the next thing. What do you think was particularly special about that time? Is there anything you feel like should be brought back into the music?
I think what was special about that time is what we just mentioned. There was no rules, we were free to express ourselves. I think originality was really big too. Everybody wanted to do their own thing and show what they could bring to the table. So there was a lot of creation going on at that time with the game too. I definitely think it was a good time for me cause I was able to come and express myself on what I wanted to do without no bars or no boundaries. If I wanted to flow for 52 bars, then I flowed for 52 bars. That was that.

I think what was good about that and what I think we should bring back is take some of the cookie cutting out of the game. Everything don’t have to be the same format and when somebody does something different we don’t have to look at it like something else. As long as it’s in that hip-hop vein, we have to understand that the brother wanted to express himself like that.
When I was coming up, there were certain artists that kind of made you cram to understand what they were on. Stevie Wonder, whenever he came out, was totally different from what everyone else was doing. When he came out with “Isn’t She Lovely” and all that, it was so different and profound, it was like, Yo this don’t sound like what we listen to on the radio everyday at the time! But it was so musical and talented that it was like, “Wow.”” And I think that now some people are scared to step out of that cookie cutter. But, again, you have people coming up in the game that aren’t scared to change it up, like Kendrick Lamar. I love the fact that he’s doing what he’s doing.

I love that record.
He reminds you of California, but he doesn’t rhyme like nobody from California. He’s not doing the same style. He has his own style, he’s doing different things, and he’s not doing the cookie cutter way you’re supposed to do a song. So hopefully that will change and people will start saying different is good. That brother is different with his stuff but it’s still in the vein of hip-hop. So maybe people will say different is good, people will accept it. People are rhyming different, and bringing a new style. So big up Kendrick.

I think we can end it like that. But I wanted to thank you for something specificaly, because I remember the last time I interviewed you, the first question I asked you was, "Who is God?" And you'd said that you don’t really do interviews because you say, “Look, understand me on my record.” Then when the record came out, you had a song “Who is God?” And that was one of the illest records I ever heard, particularly because you answered my question so fully.
Thank you, man. It’s hard to do that in an interview. People used to always mix my words up, so a lot of times I didn’t like speaking on complicated conversations. No doubt my brother.

Thank you for the time and keep doing what you’re doing. You’ve saved a lot of lives, I could tell you that for real. Thank you, that’s what keeps me going. Hearing the feedback that people appreciate what I do. Thank you too, my brother.

bolded and underlined shows that this interviewer is a fukkin poser.
k.dot sounds just like california's:

aceyalone
project blowed
abstract rude/abstract unique

fukk is he talembout.....
these fraud interviewers are nuffin more than wack writers with a degree and no history of this culture.
besides the connection to their job asking them to go somewhere.

also,..why in the fukk is this wack ass interviewer continually trying to connect jay to ra.
jay is in no shape or form anywhere the principle cultured guy that rakim is.
fukk outta here,..jay should never be mentioned once in a fukkin rakim interview.
ra has to many unanswered mysteries and legend to be asked or had jay made a reference when being interviewed.

these interviewers of rap suck.
take yo goof lame degree/receipt having ass the fukk somewhere and sit da fukk down.


art barr

 

[mson]

That balance is like the golden mean or something...being humble but having such grandiose, artistic endeavor, you know what I mean?
Yes sir, yes sir.



Who came up with the catching y’all from the back on the hood of the car? What kind of car was that?
That was a Rolls Royce. It was because the artwork Dapper Dan put on the back. The “Follow the Leader” joint, it was like, “Follow us.” So, everything kind of worked out.


It’s crazy, I just did this song the other day. I can’t mention who it is, it’s a big surpris,e one of the artists I did the song for, but I had to read the Bible and the Quran and I might’ve took about two days, spending about four to five hours each day just making sure that I got the right information for him and putting it together right. Putting it in there so that when people hear it, they can go to the Bible or the Quran and see where I got it from and draw their own understanding from it. So, whenever I get a chance. Sometimes my son will come down, Jabar, and me and him will go in there and open the Quran or the Bible and read a couple chapters and see if it makes sense, you know what I mean?

Cover Story - Eric B. & Rakim's "Follow the Leader", with photography by Drew Carolan
Cover Story for December 7, 2007

Subject – Follow the Leader, a 1988 release by Eric B. & Rakim on Uni/MCA records, with cover image by Drew Carolan
For a guy who thinks that he has a fairly open mind when it comes to music appreciation and thinks that he’s kept abreast of most major musical revolutions of the past 40 years, I must honestly say that I missed the beginnings of organized rap & hip-hop. I do remember Deborah Harry’s rap on “Rapture”, and thought that that was kinda cool, but I entered the rap world only after being exposed to Ice-T’s Body Count. As a music fan with hard rock/heavy metal leanings, I heard that album, was thoroughly impressed, and then wanted to know more.
In my quest for knowledge, I consulted a friend and co-worker at the time who had been involved in the late 80’s rap/hip-hop scene in NYC, which eventually led to the production/promotion world and his own label. He helped me understand who was who, who came first, who was popular, etc., but it may have been too little, too late (thanks, Rocky, for trying). However, when I started the gallery, it became clear that the imagery used to package and promote records in this genre was really compelling, with the talents and artistry of the photographers and illustrators well-represented in the major “world’s best record cover” lists. More than what was typically found in the rock and pop genres, these photographs and illustrations were a vital part of the artists’ image, with these images the keys to the record-buying public’s acceptance of an artist’s “street cred”. The better an artist’s credibility, the more likely it was that the lyrics represented a rapper’s actual life story, and the more that the public believed, the larger the artist’s loyal fan base would grow.
In the mid-late 1980’s, no one had a better claim to the title of “best DJ and MC” in the hip-hop scene than NY’s Eric B. & Rakim. Eric B’s skills on the turntable and his mix of samples were unique and unmatched, whereas Rakim is still considered one of the – if not “the” – premiere lyricists and rap stylists ever (what I liked most was that I could understand the lyrics and, as a drummer myself, I could truly appreciate the technical mastery of the smooth-yet-intricate beats that underlie the vocals). When asked who influenced their styles the most, every rapper (and most of the groups that combined hip-hop and rock - from the Wu-Tang Clan to Rage Against the Machine) named Eric B. & Rakim at the top of their lists. Their second landmark major-label record – 1988’s Follow the Leader – cemented their place in rap/hip-hop history (one of Source Magazine’s 2005 list of the 100 Best Rap Albums), featured much more polished production values than its predecessor (1987’s Paid in Full), the introduction of more unique instrumentation, and samplings of classic R&B that surely boosted the revenues of used record stores as a new generation of DJs looked for source materials they could use to try and out-do the reigning kings. A fixture in NY-area photo-journalism, photographer Drew Carolan was there to capture many of the stars of the emerging scene and was asked to shoot a series of photos out of which would emerge the memorable cover image for Follow the Leader.
So, let’s “Pump Up The Volume” and listen to the Cover Story behind one of rap’s most-iconic recordings…

In the words of the photographer, Drew Carolan (interviewed December, 2007) –
“I had photographed Eric and Ra for Interview in 1987 and, as an 'inner-city white kid on the hip-hop tip'*(Ed. - see translation, below), I was down with their first record, Paid in Full, as that was a big club record. I had worked with several artists at Def Jam - artists such as LL Cool J – and was already doing editorial pieces for magazines like Interview and SPIN.
For a special Interview Christmas issue, I did a series of photographs which featured the best and brightest rap and hip-hop artists of the day, including Schooly D, Davy DMX, DJ Hurricane and Eric B and Rakim, and so when the Follow the Leader record was being put together Robert Smith, who was the creative director at UNI/MCA, called me to do the covers for the album and the 12-inch single. Robert knew me from the music biz as I was beginning to make packages which included photography and music videos for MCA R&B artists such as Brenda K. Starr and Bobby Brown. Initially, we met with Lyor Cohen and Bill Adler at the Def Jam offices down on Elizabeth Street. They just wanted to make sure that their artist would look as 'fly' as possible and, using the clothing designed by Dapper Dan, that wasn’t a hard thing to do.
You have to understand that Eric is a large, quiet gentleman who does his talking by way of the turntables, whereas Rakim is a person as complex as his rhymes. The antithesis of Eric, Rakim is like caged heat waiting to boil over. His thoughts and feelings can be read on his face - but not for long. Like his lyrics, as soon as you think you have him sussed, he’s moved on. They were the perfect compliment for a brand of music that was both rhythmic and deep at a time when no one else was doing what they were doing. Essentially, they were leaders in the school of Rap - and they knew that - so there was no lack of confidence there.
I thought it would be cool to shoot down by the bridges in Lower Manhattan since they represented the connections between the other boroughs and then beyond. The album and title track were called ‘Follow the Leader’, so basically I wanted to present the two of them as ‘leaders’. To do that, I’d shoot them from a low 'heroic' angle, being sure to incorporate the design of the car into the shot. I like to keep things graphic and minimal when it comes to design and I like to compose in camera as much as possible. The open sky allowed me to feature the artists against it and, since they were wearing dark clothes, it worked perfectly as a silhouette (so to speak), with the hint of the bridges augmenting the expanse and vibe of New York City.
The morning light would make for a perfect set-up for this cover, so we timed the shoot that way. Photographers always love the early light and, being on the East side of town, we would have a window of opportunity until 10:30am and, after that, it was anybody’s guess.I had rented some 4 x 4 silver reflectors to bounce any ambient light around since the riverfront and the bridges could create lots of shadows and obstructions. On location for a shoot like this and on a limited budget, you have to be clever and economical with the way you work. My background working with several master photographers taught me how to deal with all of that. Annette Daniels was the stylist (she and I had worked on a bunch of project together. She was friends with Living Colour when I photographed them before they were signed and then again when I did the Vivid album photography, their 'Cult of Personality' video, and so on) and I had a couple of assistants with me to work the reflectors and call out the light readings but other than that the only other thing I needed was a ladder.

 

[mson]

Eric showed up with his crew driving a Rolls Royce of insane magnitude - the kind of vehicle that you look at, but certainly don’t touch. It was a dark burgundy with black trim and had lots of sexy curves to it. It brought the look of the area up to a whole new level. This was basically the Fulton Fish Market area, and when I think of that, I think of On the Waterfront and not about Rolls Royce’s.
As the morning progressed, the light I was hoping for came and went and Rakim was nowhere to be found. This was before technology made someone just a phone call or a text message away. We were standing around in the 30-degree weather watching the winter light head towards New Jersey.
As it turns out, Eric and Ra had done a performance at a fundraiser for Jesse Jackson (who was running for President in 1988) the night before at the Apollo Theater. Word from the inside was that there was a riff between the two that day and during the encore Rakim - the microphone fiend - walked off and left Eric on stage. They had not seen each other since the night before and now here we were on the album cover shoot, four hours behind schedule, in the icy cold and it was about to get colder. When you’re doing a shoot like this, the key to being a pro is to maintain your cool. This would be a test, no doubt.
Rakim showed up driving his Mercedes and behind him were a slew of SUV’s carrying his posse. ‘At least he was here’ is what I figured. Now all we had to do was get an image that would work. The guys were already dressed, so that saved some time in the process. About the only thing that Rakim said to me was ‘How long is this going to take?…I got to get back to Queens!' Obviously there was something in Queens that was more important than this. I told Ra that we would get him out of there as soon as we possibly could.

I has already shot some singles of Eric leaning on his Rolls with the Brooklyn Bridge in the background. These looked good, so we added Rakim into the equation and worked quickly with the available light – which was heading West - and so Rakim could get back to Queens.
I shot everything with my Hasselblad ELX with either a 50 or an 80 mm lens. At the end of the shoot both posse’s got together to pose for a group shot with Eric and Ra’s car pointing towards each other. I shot some with the Hassey and then fired off a roll with my motorized Nikon FM. All the film was Ekatchrome transparency 100 pushed a stop.

I edited the work down to my top choices (keeping a wide range, but weeding out the obvious) and sent them to Robert. He then worked with my friend - designer Carla Davis - on the layout and the lettering. I didn’t see anything again until it was finished but honestly, with Robert and Carla working together, I knew they would make the best image possible. As it turned out, the label was happy, I was pleased, and Rakim made it back to Queens with time to spare. At the time, I knew the record was ground-breaking just because of the samples being used and the flow of the rhymes. I never anticipated the amount of recognition the record has received over the years, so that is naturally very pleasing.
You know, I thought it was really dope that these guys were willing to turn their backs to the camera for the cover shot. The concept was that if you are following the leader, this is what you’d see - their backs. As Rakim says on the record...’A lot of you wondering why the album was late? I was giving you time to get the last one straight...’ Check the words...”
* - It means that I was from deep in the bowels of the city (Lower East side) and "tip" as in tipped off to something new, fresh!

 

[The Ruler 09]

Yeah that Moe Dee book is classic even though I may disagree with some of the EMCEEs on HIS list.

Few other Hip Hop related books I enjoyed were

It's Not About A Salary: rap. race + resistance in Los Angeles 1993 by Brian Cross
Classic Material: The Hip Hop Album Guide 2003 edited by Oliver Wang foreword by Dante Ross
Def Jam Inc 2005 by Stacy Gueraseva
LL Cool J: I Make My Own Rules 1997 aka The Book Canibus Bought To Read by Karen Hunter

If you're looking for rare and hard to find Hip Hop 12's from the 80s

Freddy Fresh Presents The Rap Records: The Ultimate Vinyl Resource Book 2004

Great book on Funk music

Funk: The Music, the People, the Rhythm of The One by Rickey Vincent foreword by George Clinton 1996

Yeah I didn't agree with the order, think some people should have been included also but I liked the way he had the ratings and took the art seriously. That book is GREAT for up and coming MC's, gives them a guidelines. Dope man, thanks for the info, I liked The Gospel Of Hip Hop by KRS-One too, been looking for The Ruminations one of years but can't find it anywhere.

 

[Change]

Thanks homey. We need more of this on here.

 

[mobbinfms]

bolded and underlined shows that this interviewer is a fukkin poser.
k.dot sounds just like california's:

aceyalone
project blowed
abstract rude/abstract unique

fukk is he talembout.....
these fraud interviewers are nuffin more than wack writers with a degree and no history of this culture.
besides the connection to their job asking them to go somewhere.

also,..why in the fukk is this wack ass interviewer continually trying to connect jay to ra.
jay is in no shape or form anywhere the principle cultured guy that rakim is.
fukk outta here,..jay should never be mentioned once in a fukkin rakim interview.
ra has to many unanswered mysteries and legend to be asked or had jay made a reference when being interviewed.

these interviewers of rap suck.
take yo goof lame degree/receipt having ass the fukk somewhere and sit da fukk down.


art barr

Rakim actually said the part that you quoted. You just inadvertently said Rakim has "no history of this culture"!!

 

[Art Barr]

Rakim actually said the part that you quoted. You just inadvertently said Rakim has "no history of this culture"!!

no, ra did not,...
the interviewer made those comments.


art barr

 

[mobbinfms]

no, ra did not,...
the interviewer made those comments.


art barr

Nope. Ra said it. Go look at the actual story on the Complex website. The interviewers questions/comments are bolded.

It's not a big deal. I know you wouldn't fiercely criticize Ra for maki g such a minor mistake, but then again, maybe you shouldn't have been so quick to attack the interviewer? Unless you are familiar with other stories of his/hers and he doesn't know what the f he's talking about.

 

[Art Barr]

Nope. Ra said it. Go look at the actual story on the Complex website. The interviewers questions/comments are bolded.

It's not a big deal. I know you wouldn't fiercely criticize Ra for maki g such a minor mistake, but then again, maybe you shouldn't have been so quick to attack the interviewer? Unless you are familiar with other stories of his/hers and he doesn't know what the f he's talking about.

For ra, if I am wrong.
I will admit I am wrong.
it also, would not be the first time.
I disagreed with a rakim interview comment.
Which he has several that are a little offbase and I feel him just being diplomatic for the sale of diplomacy.
Which is a-typical of what could happen and has happened in his place of ra being PC.

In defense though,...
This interview speaks to much on other emcees and should have focused completely on ra.
fukk I wanna keep hearing about other rappers for, when we are in a rakim interview.


Art Barr

 

[mobbinfms]

For ra, if I am wrong.
I will admit I am wrong.
it also, would not be the first time.
I disagreed with a rakim interview comment.
Which he has several that are a little offbase and I feel him just being diplomatic for the sale of diplomacy.
Which is a-typical of what could happen and has happened in his place of ra being PC.

In defense though,...
This interview speaks to much on other emcees and should have focused completely on ra.
fukk I wanna keep hearing about other rappers for, when we are in a rakim interview.


Art Barr

Yeah - its no big deal really. I guess it just shows that if someone makes a statement that oversimplifies , for example, the sound of a region, it doesn't necessarily mean the person doesn't know what they're talking about.

I was happy with the interview. The Jay Z stuff was weird, but I got the sense the interviewer was a real fan he seemed to have a history with Ra. I detected mutual respect. I'll giv props to ComPlex for doing the story in the first place. I don't think any other publications took time out to commemorate the 25th anniversary.

 

[We Major]

bump but I'm having a bit of a Eric B. & Rakim night tonight god damn