Reconciling Homophobia and Homoeroticism in Hip-hop

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I gave you a simple answer. If you want to count all the threads I've participated in, be my guest. I don't know what you hope to get out of it.

1. The article never says Tribe or De La were seen as weak and less masculine. In fact, the point is that they were from an era where those accusations weren't thrown around, and that changed.

2. No it didn't. It was already underway by the mid-90s. Just look at some of the lyrics posted.

3. No one ever said they did. "Various states of nudity" doesn't mean everyone was naked. If you want to look up the Vibe cover, be my guest.

4. So because they're "R&B" artists, they have nothing to do with hip-hop? Let's be serious.

5. So? Why does it have to? It's about a mostly separate issue, which is how hyper-masculinity and misogyny create self-destructive patterns of behavior in the Black community and encourage violence.

Why don't you stop cherrypicking little bits and pieces and try to come to grips with the main argument?

1. His argument to bring Tribe and Dela in the mix of different types of masculinity and he didn't explain his point. So was he saying there are high and low masculinity?

2. There are no lyrics posted taking about homosexuality or homo-eroticism

3. There is nudity and there is no nudity. There is no "various states". Argument is invalid and pointless

4. Hiphop isn't R&B and vice versa. They collab all the time but let's be serious homie.

5. Drugs and Black on Black Violence is killing people that's why that is #1 over what you are talking about. Rappers have died, people have died off this and you are worried if they are overly hard in their video calling another dude "Gay"?

6. The article you posted is nitpicking what it wants but the author can't back up any of his claims.
 

The Real

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No hate, but I don't recognize much of what you're arguing against in the article itself, though I would agree with you if I did. I appreciate the line by line- I'm going to respond in the same format.

Which is what? Hip hop is gay? Or that hip hop hates gays because it's gay? GTFOH with that.

Neither one, and if you're endorsing one of those two, I can see why the article wouldn't sit well with you. The thesis is that there is a strain (which we can agree isn't necessarily the dominant one anymore, but definitely was during gangsta rap's prime) of rap culture that promotes hypermasculinity, which includes misogyny and the fetishization of a certain kind of maleness, and that both of these are intricately connected to homoeroticism, which exists in a strange, repressed form in that same strain. The connection itself manifests in a few different ways, but all of them are ultimately negative.

1. A Vibe editor saying LL on a cover means it's appealing to men sexually is an opinion. And no more valid than saying collecting baseball cards is appealing to sports fans because they got it bad for their favorite pitcher.

You're simplifying the argument here. The fact is that Vibe magazine, and 50 Cent albums have a primarily male audience. So when you see a picture of 50, shirtless, greased up, flexing and posing on the cover of The Massacre, it isn't for a female viewership. So you have to ask yourself why, then, would that be appealing to a male viewer? What is it about that? That is very, very different from saying that a picture of a baseball player on a card is gay. A shirtless, oiled up man posing and flexing is not the same as a baseball player in a regular portrait. If you had a friend who only collected shirtless pics of male players, would you find that unremarkable?

2. Snoop Dog didn't advocate group sex, he advocated sharing.

Again, the argument is NOT that he advocated group sex. It's that there are homoerotic subtexts to certain kinds of sexual activity. In that lyric, Snoop specifically says, and this is not twisting his words, that it's "no fun" unless "we all (as in the men) get some." This is similar to frat boys who fantasize about high-fiving each other while fukking the same woman. In this case, the pleasure of each man is explicitly enhanced and mediated by the pleasure of the other men, which is exactly what Snoop is suggesting. That is textbook homoeroticism. Now, keep in mind that the general tenor of the song is misogynistic. Both Snoop and Kurupt say specifically that they don't respect these women and that they "aren't shyt." So the women aren't actually sources of enjoyment here- they are just tools that mediate between the real source of enjoyment, which is other men. In that specific context, yes, sharing is homoerotic.

3. He misconstrued wanting a strong woman with wanting a strong man.

No, he didn't conflate the two. He said that the two are similar enough, not by coincidence, but because they both issue from the same cultural norms, to open the door for confused behavior in the males who subscribe to those hypermasculine ideals.

4. He doesn't understand (for lack of a better word) ghetto culture and what actually drives it.

No one is coming up with a general explanation of "ghetto culture." This is specifically about hypermasculinity and those who subscribe to it.

5. He doesn't understand the actual reasoning, motives and interaction sex plays in prison nor how sex in general, particularly rape is about power, not sex.

Of course rape is about power. But it's not just about power, because there's no such thing is power abstracted from particular social contexts. Power isn't an independent entity that can be measured or discussed as if it exists as an object. A man who rapes another man is after power, yes- but he's also ok with fukking a man, and chose that among all the other ways to exercise power. He doesn't have to see that as gay. But if a man gets your dikk hard, straight is not the word for you, either.

6. He claims homo eroticism is a response to mysogeny because it's frowned on for being "soft" with a girl.

He never says that homoeroticism is directly caused by misogyny. Rather, he says that the latter opens the door for "lines to blur." It's not a necessary connection, but is something that can and did happen. And misogyny, the way he talks about it, isn't the sole factor. There is also the element of upholding male relationships as the highest ones, which in itself isn't gay, but again, contributes to opening the door for it. Historically, both of those elements are correlated with homoeroticism. Look at the ancient Greeks. Plato specifically says women are inferior to men and that the highest form of relationship is "non-sexual" love between two men, exactly what several gangsta rappers have said. "Homies over hoes," as McGruder put it. Is it then any surprise that men were fukking all the time in Plato's culture, and that he himself extols fukking young boys and men?

7. He has a jacked understanding of gender roles, their origins and their impact on society and culture and vise versa.

This is a general statement that I'm assuming refers to all the other arguments you made.

8. Dude flat out said being tight with your boys means lines get blurred, dude is basically saying brotherly love is sexual :smh:

Again, he did not say that being tight with your boys necessarily leads to blurred lines. He said that the combination of hypermasculinity's misogyny and upholding of maleness as requisite for an ideal relationship opens the door for lines to blur. In some cases, this is followed by either subliminal or explicit homoeroticism, and in gangsta rap, that was the case. Young Thug would not be wearing dresses right now if thug culture didn't already have a homo element. Nothing homo he does has any connection to white gay culture invading, as some people desperately want to believe. It's all homegrown.
 
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don't want to willingly accept the agenda?, cool, we'll just tell you how you been supporting it anyway because LL licks his lips a lot and men still purchased his albums, so obviously some of you men subconsciously liked it too.

:ohlawd:

Yup. The pro-gay bullying in our society is really out of control.
 
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That's because you can't help but think conspiratorially, friend.

Oh yeah you are trying so hard to tell us "What the author is really saying" or "what he meant was". The article is bad and doesn't have a point except generalizations and putting issues there that are pretty much irrelevant.
 

Julius Skrrvin

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When I was young I joked around and said Me and My bytch was bout a dude to the wrong stans. I got jumped. :manny:

Holy shyt, lmfao. Dapped, repped, sigged :salute:

dead2.gif
 

The Real

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Oh yeah you are trying so hard to tell us "What the author is really saying" or "what he meant was". The article is bad and doesn't have a point except generalizations and putting issues there that are pretty much irrelevant.

I'm not making leaps, though... it's all there. You might not be invested in reading it properly, but the author is actually pretty specific in the language he uses. I had no issue seeing that when I read it. You are twisting his words to make it seem like he's saying things that are completely unrelated to the point of the article.

You might think the rehabilitation of Black masculinity and teaching Black boys how to be men and respect women is irrelevant, but it's part of the foundation of Black community.
 
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I'm not making leaps, though... it's all there. You might not be invested in reading it properly, but the author is actually pretty specific in the language he uses. I had no issue seeing that when I read it. You are twisting his words to make it seem like he's saying things that are completely unrelated to the point of the article.

You might think the rehabilitation of Black masculinity and teaching Black boys how to be men and respect women is irrelevant, but it's part of the foundation of Black community.

1. Man give no links to his examples so people can see physical proof
2. His mixes R&B artists up as Hiphop artists
3. Very little is explained about the different types of masculinity in his or her first sentence.
4. I never twisted his words around and there isn't any proof of that.
5. He goes all over the place without getting to his core issue.

So you are attacking my character because your article sucked. Black boys should be able to be taught how to be Men. In order to be a Man, they must recognize Women as Earths and cherish their worth. Boys can't become Men in the world trying to change them through manipulation. This is why there is a continuous agenda trying to push by groups and the article proves the author is outdated with his viewpoint and clueless about the last 14 years of Hiphop.
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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When I was a youngin, I never understood the obsession rappers had with their dikks, dating back to EPMD always talking about "get the bozack" and all that and rappers posing grabbing their dikks.

The Chronic in particular is the gayest album ever. There's so many references to dikks in mouths and men getting fukked you'd think boys dance to it on stage in Afghanistan.
 

The Real

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1. Man give no links to his examples so people can see physical proof
2. His mixes R&B artists up as Hiphop artists
3. Very little is explained about the different types of masculinity in his or her first sentence.
4. I never twisted his words around and there isn't any proof of that.
5. He goes all over the place without getting to his core issue.

So you are attacking my character because your article sucked. Black boys should be able to be taught how to be Men. In order to be a Man, they must recognize Women as Earths and cherish their worth. Boys can't become Men in the world trying to change them through manipulation. This is why there is a continuous agenda trying to push by groups and the article proves the author is outdated with his viewpoint and clueless about the last 14 years of Hiphop.

1. He gives numerous examples of lyrics and imagery that tells Black men to hate Black women and femininity and to only cherish male relationships.

2. It's not a mixup. They share listeners, do songs together, and promote similar ideas.

3. That's because he's only talking about one bad form of masculinity, hypermasculinity. That's the topic. It's not a book on all the forms of Black masculinity, but a short essay on one kind.

4. So far, you haven't understood the main argument of the article. You don't even know exactly what you're arguing against.

5. No, he has one core issue and he explains it clearly. Hypermasculinity is a part of gangsta rap and thug culture. Hypermasculinity includes misogyny (hating and devaluing women and relationships with women) and upholding manliness and male relationships as the best ones. That opens the door for lines to be blurred and contributes to homo thug culture, subterranean gay elements on gangsta rap music, and sexual confusion among Black males.
 
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1. He gives numerous examples of lyrics and imagery that tells Black men to hate Black women and femininity and to only cherish male relationships.

2. It's not a mixup. They share listeners, do songs together, and promote similar ideas.

3. That's because he's only talking about one bad form of masculinity, hypermasculinity. That's the topic. It's not a book on all the forms of Black masculinity, but a short essay on one kind.

4. So far, you haven't understood the main argument of the article. You don't even know exactly what you're arguing against.

5. No, he has one core issue and he explains it clearly. Hypermasculinity is a part of gangsta rap and thug culture. Hypermasculinity includes misogyny (hating and devaluing women and relationships with women) and upholding manliness and male relationships as the best ones. That opens the door for lines to be blurred and contributes to homo thug culture, subterranean gay elements on gangsta rap music, and sexual confusion among Black males.

Do you even really believe in this nonsense? "Hyper"masculinity is homoeroticism now? :mindblown:

You know damn well telling a guy to suck your dikk is said for the purpose of showing the ultimate form of disrespect. It is a tool to attack someone. You're not supposed to picture dikk sucking when you're listening to these lyrics and similar lyrics.
 

The Real

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Do you even really believe in this nonsense? "Hyper"masculinity is homoeroticism now? :mindblown:

You know damn well telling a guy to suck your dikk is said for the purpose of showing the ultimate form of disrespect. It is a tool to attack someone. You're not supposed to picture dikk sucking when you're listening to these lyrics and similar lyrics.

No, yet again, hypermasculinity is NOT homoeroticism. It opens the door for homoeroticism through a mixture of misogyny and upholding all-male relationships as ideal. That's part of why there has always been a correlation between warrior cultures and homosexual behavior- Spartans, Zulus, Samurai, etc. As for telling someone to suck your dikk... I agree, in many cases in hip-hop music, it has no literal connotation whatsoever and is merely a form of disrespect. But telling another woman "you're more than a lover/woman... you're like a brother," is an entirely different matter.
 
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No, yet again, hypermasculinity is NOT homoeroticism. It opens the door for homoeroticism through a mixture of misogyny and upholding all-male relationships as ideal. As for telling someone to suck your dikk... I agree, in many cases in hip-hop music, it has no literal connotation whatsoever and is merely a form of disrespect.

There is no evidence of this. At all. This is psychotic rambling trying to make men even more feminine than they already are.

But telling another woman "you're more than a lover/woman... you're like a brother," is an entirely different matter.

It is weird, but the meaning is not what you're making it out to be. The reach to make it homoerotic is greater than the reach to make it incestual.
 
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