Shaq: I Agree With What T-Mac Said. Probably Get A Lot Of Flak, But I Always Said Myself, I , I Think I Could've Got 3 In A Row With T-Mac.
- Thread starter Big Boss
- Start date
Saying they beat the Pistons assumes T-Mac is the better player and he wasn’t. And they were debated because of their offense prowess - not because of their all around games or how they played in the biggest moments. I’m pretty confident that if you replaced LeBron James with Kevin Durant of the same age on those Miami Heat teams they still win and lose all the same series in that weak ass East. That doesn’t take away from LeBron. I’m pretty sure that if you Dan Marino on those Colts and Broncos teams he could win like Peyton but we don’t do that for Dan. Point being is we don’t give people hypothetical accolades nor do we try to erase someone’s accolades to make a debate “fair” or to make our point. Kobes actual resume exists and T-Mac’s resume doesn’t sniff his - with or without Shaq. T-Mac somehow doesn’t mention the 3 straight finals without Shaq. Is T- Mac running through the West like 08-10 Kobe? We giving him hypothetical series win with Pau Gasol when he couldn’t win with Yao? fukk outta here.
Kobe haters just believe he’s been dead long enough to shyt on him again. I’m losing respect for a lot of people.
Everythingg
King-Over-Kingz
Well I guess they have to lead their teams in scoring. If not their championships don't count is what Im getting
Im just humoring the nonsense till I get bored and move on to something else but here's how we're supposed to judge. First its Kobe's first 3 don't count because he was "2nd fiddle" to Shaq(even though he closed/facilitated for the team). Fast forward and now it's his last 2 rings don't count because he was first fiddle to Pau Gasol lol. Mind you Pau was a 1 time all star that was 0-12 in the playoffs and had never made an all NBA team up to that point. But to take away from Kobe we should attribute all of Kobe's playoff success to the 2nd fiddle who couldnt even win a playoff game, let alone a series...
Shaq was sub 500 in the playoffs up until 2000 and from then to 2004 had a 70% winning percentage. Him and Pau both had their best playoff years playing alongside the same player but that player gets none of the credit and they get it all. Interesting...
He should have worked harder
And I fukked with Tmac too so I hate dwelling on the negative side of his career like this but it is what it is 
Thats the problem with stat watchers. They just look at stats and think that the stats tell the whole story
James Harden career: 24.1 ppg 5.6 rebs 7.2 asts 1.5 stls .6 blks
Dwyane Wade career: 22 ppg 4.7 rebs 5.4 asts 1.5 stls. .8 blks
A lazy stat watcher would say that James Harden could be put in Wade's position and win rings just like Wade did. A lazy stat watcher would point out how Wade scored 11 pts in the last deciding game of the 2014 finals and blindly say Harden could have scored 11 pts too so that means Wade was replaceable
Going by his history he wouldn't have been able to get to the finals to have an attempt to show us he could put up 15 pts or not
I've been trying to. The first thing you brought up was defensive rating yet when I try to discuss it you want me to address some new number that you still don't understand. I'll try again:
Marcus Smart- 107.9
Gary Payton- 105.6
Jrue Holiday- 109
Andre Iguoudala- 105
Manu Ginobili- 100
Is there a reason you don't want to explain Manu having a 100 defensive rating and Jrue Holiday having a 109? Or let me ask this. Would Steph Curry's numbers look the same playing with Deandre Ayton as his center as they would if he had Hakeem as his center? Same player in both situations but whose defensive numbers would look better?
Mister Terrific
It’s in the name
You’re going off tangent. If Kareem was the focal point of all six NBA championships he won he would be the unanimous GOAT. Same way if Kobe was the focal point of all 5 Laker championships he would be 1B with Jordan. He wasn’t. He was the focal point on 2 championships and was the back up to the most dominant player in NBA history.
If Kobe was really like that the Lakers would’ve won chips in 2003 and 2004 when Kobe had higher usage and shot attempts. They didn’t and Shaq CONTINUED to be the superior player.
Nobody said they don’t count, but we aren’t about to weigh them the same as finals MVP. Kobe is top 10-15 player. Top 5-10 modern era 1980-. But he’s not a goat candidate.
He doesn’t have the raw numbers nor accoladesIt’s why you have to disparage his teammates.
Kobe before Pau and after Shaq didn’t win a playoff series so what are you talking about?
Shaq left LA and immediately won a chip while outside of his prime.
Shaq needed someone to average 15 ppg?
He should have worked harder
Back injuries have nothing to do with working hard. Like saying Kobe should’ve worked harder when he fukked his knees up that led to his Achilles popping. That’s called bad luck. You ever played a sport before?
Kobe fans don’t fukk with anyone but Kobe. You’re a cult.And I fukked with Tmac too so I hate dwelling on the negative side of his career like this but it is what it is
So Kobe actually played good here?Thats the problem with stat watchers. They just look at stats and think that the stats tell the whole story
James Harden career: 24.1 ppg 5.6 rebs 7.2 asts 1.5 stls .6 blks
Dwyane Wade career: 22 ppg 4.7 rebs 5.4 asts 1.5 stls. .8 blks
A lazy stat watcher would say that James Harden could be put in Wade's position and win rings just like Wade did. A lazy stat watcher would point out how Wade scored 11 pts in the last deciding game of the 2014 finals and blindly say Harden could have scored 11 pts too so that means Wade was replaceable
No you haven’t. Here it is again
Kobe’s is notable defensive liability over the course in his career in long term RAPM. Kobe never had a positive D-DPM (which mixes box score and on/off) data. AND YET, Kobe was wildly considered a great defender during his career. He won 10 All-Defensive team nods. So what are the advanced stats missing about Kobe?
holidayinn21
:SmugMoneyMike:
Kobe's accolades gets diminished
But T-Mac's first round exits gets the "Shoulda coulda wouldas"
You can't make this up. This is exactly why that guy is in the White House for a second time
But T-Mac's first round exits gets the "Shoulda coulda wouldas"
You can't make this up. This is exactly why that guy is in the White House for a second time
///Vega+++
All Star
O'Neal is Just a despicable c00n
Everythingg
King-Over-Kingz
Kareem, Magic, Jerry, Wilt, Dr. J, Drexler, Shaq in Miami etc... None of these players won all their rings as the number 1 option and in the case of Kareem and maybe Dr. J dropped all the way to 3rd option. It's never even brought up. Nobody asks if Magic would have won without Kareem and Pat Riley. Or if Kareem would have won without Magic, Oscar Robertson and/or Pat Riley. Nobody asks if Tim Duncan would have won without Greg Pop and the Spurs organization.
If you're trying to line up a list of 20 greats you have to evaluate them the same. Otherwise it's always going to an emotional list based on who someone likes/dislikes. And here's the best example of that:
Kobe before Pau and after Shaq didn’t win a playoff series so what are you talking about?
Shaq left LA and immediately won a chip while outside of his prime.
Kobe doesn't get credit for winning as the 1A with Shaq while we turn around and say that he also doesn't get credit for winning as the number 1 to Pau Gasol's 2. Then in the very next sentence we turn back around and give Shaq credit for winning as the second option to Dwyane Wade.
It only took 2 sentences to show how you emotionally evaluate 2 great players and their accomplishments differently based on who you like/dislike. IF this is how we look at 2 different players then lets change the list to the average person's top 100 favorite player's list.
Shaq had anywhere from 10-15 different teammates that averaged 15 ppg before 2000. Yet he still had a 500 playoff record? Then from 2000-2004 he ends up with a .711 winning percentage in the playoffs. I wonder who he played with during that time?
(Who?) 27.6 ppg 5.7 rebs 5.3 asts
Shaq: 26.4 ppg 13.8 rebs 3. asts
Instead of asking could Tmac, who didn't practice hard, match this body of work over the span of 4 years, we look for low moments in that span and ask could Tmac match those. fukk asking if James Harden could match Lebron in being a driving force for a team that went to 4 straight finals and winning 2. Let's instead look for that low moment Bron had where he averaged 17 7 and 7 as the 5th leading scorer in the series. Let's ask if James could put up a stat line like that and score more than 11 pts in 4th quarter for the WHOLE SERIES. If he can, then lets tell everyone thet the Heat would have went to 4 straight finals and won 2 if they followed James Harden....
Disingenuous argument basked on someone you dislike
If by his words he didn't take practice serious, then its safe to assume that he didn't take rehab serious either. And not taking rehab seriously can obviously lead to more injuries. I mean "you ever play a sport before"?
Adding Tmac to a player like this:
Doesn't automatically lead to 3 straight championships. T
This is how women that have not been held accountable move. THey'll say something then when someone points out a flaw in what they said they'll deflect to something else. If you follow them to that and do it again, they'll deflect again. If you don't, they'll walk away feeling like they didn't have a flaw in what they said...
You don't want to address Manu having a 100 defensive rating and Jrue Holiday having 109 because it exposes analytics for not being foolproof. Steph is the same defender (in ability) whether with Olajuwon on Kevon Looney. But playing with Hakeem makes those numbers go up
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Blackrogue
Superstar
Blackrogue
Superstar
I love and respect Kobe. But if i am being Honest with myself, despite Shaq's lack of work ethic he was the very very key difference maker. He went the next year and won with Flash. I don't think any team would still see any of those squads if Kobe was replaced by Tracy or Vince or Wade. Not because of any shortcomings from Kobe or any lack of love or respect for him but because Shaq was that Dominant and because those other guy mentioned were also tough but we don't give any of them inlcuding shaq the appropriate amount of flowers. Any of those guys he mentioned if they played next to him and in LA would have changed drastically the way they were viewed
That Aside. There's been tooo much Kobe Slander going around recently. I dunno whos pushing this agenda but people beginning to talk reckless and they are people affilated with Lebron Somehow
That Aside. There's been tooo much Kobe Slander going around recently. I dunno whos pushing this agenda but people beginning to talk reckless and they are people affilated with Lebron Somehow
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NYC Rebel
...on the otherside of the pond
So Pau Gasol and his history of first round exits can join Kobe, Phil and the Lakers, suddenly wins yet saying T Mac with all his first round exits (where he played well) could win ships with Shaq & Phil would be a bridge too far?
Mister Terrific
It’s in the name
If Kareem was seen as the 1A in all 6 of his titles he’d be considered the GOAT. Same with all the other players listed. Stop crying because it’s rightfully pointed out Kobe was the B side in the Lakers chips.
It’s brought up all the time that Magic and Bird walked into championship organizations and virtual allstar teams and Jordan built Chicago from nothing as to why he is better than them despite losing most head to head matchups.
Kobe walked into a championship organization with the most dominant big man in NBA history.
You would have a point if we didn’t actually see Kobe struggle to usurp Shaq and take the franchise over. From 1999-2007 he did not have the emotional intelligence to lead a franchise.
This is sad
He wasn’t 1A.
Shaq was clearly the superior player. When are you Marjorie Mambas gonna come to terms with this?
Nobody said that. You MAGA mambas want to act like Pau Gasol who went to allstar games after Kobe was Javalle McGee.
Shaq gets as much credit for winning with Wade as Kobe gets for winning with Shaq.Then in the very next sentence we turn back around and give Shaq credit for winning as the second option to Dwyane Wade.
You maga mambas don’t care about evaluating players or accomplishments. If you did Kobe only having 2 finals MVPs and no statistical aberrations in performance besides single game regular season games that would put him as a top 5 player in NBA history.
All you really have is his all defense selections which nobody take seriously and are more about aura then production.
Or the more important aspect is he entered his prime in 2000 like Hakeem did in 1994 and became unstoppable.
Kobe had a 25% usage in the finals and posted a game score of 9.7 to Shaq’s 30 game score. Ron Harper had a game score of 9.
Can you tell us how Kobe’s TS% of 41 was more impactful than Ron Harper or Glen Rice?
How many two guards in the NBA in 2004 could take Kobe’s place and not completely piss down their legs?
Tmac who didn’t practice hard won a scoring title averaging 32 points a game.
What was Kobe doing that Tmac couldn’t do?
I’m not gonna assume that somebodies back could’ve gotten better because they didn’t rehab correctly. Same way I don’t assume Kobe didn’t have the longevity of LeBron, Durant and Steph because he didn’t take care of his achilles
This is psycho behavior for maga mambas.
MAGA babble “Kobe wasn’t guarding like that”
- Jeff Teague
Torrential
LWO
Huda shoulda coulda . the intent of this thread is to discredit Kobe . But it’s just a hypothetical . I don’t think Tmacs lazy ass would have won anything with Shaq . He never took the game serious that’s why he didn’t have a successful career and it shows in his post season record .
NYC Rebel
...on the otherside of the pond
You dont think Phil wouldve won with T Mac?
T-Mac is going to lead the 4th quarter come back against Portland? He’s hitting the Phoenix game winner to avoid going to a deciding game 5? T-Mac is going to show up against Sacramento in 02? People act like the Lakers only played the NBA finals. Again, your entire hypothetical involves assuming T-Mac is going to do exactly what Kobe did in all those situations or arguing that he is a superior player so those situations never happen. So it’s on you to demonstrate one or the other. Again, we argue off of what actually is done now what could’ve happened. We see players fold in situations made for them to succeed all the time. If things happened exactly as predicted then sports wouldn’t be sports.
NYC Rebel
...on the otherside of the pond
Maybe it doesnt get to that situation at all with T Mac.
Yall can see Phil win with Pau, Metta World Peace & others but think its unfathomable that a guy with his track record couldn’t have done it with Shaq and T Mac.
I dont agree at all and was on record years ago saying he could’ve won with Shaq and Paul Pierce, (BEFORE Paul got his ship on sohh) never mind T Mac.
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