Since this is probably Kobe's last season playing, I guess it's time to admit

[bk120]

Admit that he isn't better than Lebron.

My stance stems from a recent sports debate with the fellas about the best player since Jordan. Of course, Bean had staunch supporters, supporters that brought the usual angles, while I asserted the counterpoints I'm about to present.

First, I agree that five championships is greater than two.

But, I counter with the facts that Lebron has a better regular season and playoff scoring average.
He shoots better from the field, and from three-point over their careers making him, in fact, the better scorer.
He will surpass Kobe in rebounds this year, he already has more assists for their career, and Lebron is also the better defender.

Kobe had better teammates.
Here are the best fifteen players Kobe played with.
The players are arranged chronologically from Kobe's rookie year to now:
Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Elden Campbell, Shaq, Glen Rice, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum

Here are Lebron's, also chronologically ordered:
Boozer, Ricky Davis, Ilgauskas, Dejuan Wagner, Larry Hughes, Szczerbiak, Donyell Marshall, Mo Williams, Antwan Jamison, Shaq (17 yrs exp.), Delonte West, Chris Bosh, Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love

And this list doesn't include the comparison of lesser role players.
What does go unnoticed, even by me at first glance, is the fact that Kobe got to play with Rodman, Harper, and Grant, players that were heavily instrumental in the success of Michael Jordan, the player Kobe emulated. When these observations are combined with the fact that Phil Jackson was all five of the aforementioned players' coach, one can clearly see Kobe also had better coaching and simply belonged to a franchise with better management.

Kobe is, was, and always will be dope, but he ain't better than Lebron.

you forgot Ray Allen (future hall of famer), Shane Batier, Mike Miller, Chris Anderson

 

[Sccit]

@Miami316 I SEE U FINALLY GOT UR FIRST FEATURED THREAD LIL MAN.. COPY N PASTE ARTICLE. NICE.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

1. LeBron lost 3 other Finals in addition to last years Finalshe had the right team around him in Miami and he still lost twice makin the finals won't mean shyt if he loses again like last year
2. LeBron gets alot of FG up close so those numbers don't tell the whole story and Kobe shoots the 3 better than him,

How is it a bad thing to get shots up close when you're creating those shots yourself? Only Kobestans think it's an honor to keep missing 20-foot fadeaways because they have a higher degree of difficulty.

And Lebron's a 34% career shooter from 3pt. Kobe is only 32%. Might have to check yourself there.

Shaq was "the best player in the league" yet Kobe had numbers just as good and even better than him durin their playoff run in 01

I love that Kobestan's favorite stat is from the 2nd game of the 2nd round of one playoff series.

Yay, Kobe scored as much as Shaq (but let's not look at defense/rebounding) when beating up a 1st-round opponent!

Ignoring that he'd only averaged 20-4-4 in the previous championship run.

And what were the actual numbers when the 2001 playoffs were over?

Kobe: 29ppg on 47% shooting, 32% from threes. Far and away his best playoff run before 2008.
Shaq: 31ppg on 56% shooting, 15 boards a game. Just another Finals MVP year.

Wade was healthy for at least one of their runs and Bosh made clutch plays that won games for them in the postseason so you can't downplay them, if they were so irrelevant than LeBron would've won another ring by now without them.

Uh, you do realize that Lebron has only had 1 year without them, and that was the year that Love/Irving got hurt so he ended up carrying TT and the Australian D-leaguer 6 games deep into the finals?

Wade and Bosh > Gasol that Miami team was the best in the league and he only came away wit the same number of rings as Kobe's had since he's been in the league,

OKC had Westbrook-Durant-Harden-Ibaka, and San Antonio had Duncan-Parker-Ginobli-Kawhi -Popovich and one of the best benches in history.

meanwhile he never had a team as bad as those Lakers teams Kobe had durin his prime wit Kwame Brown Luke Walton Smush Parker etcand Kobe still took them to game 7 as a 8th seed vs the league's best Suns.

Bragging, "look at how well he lost the 1st round!"

And they weren't the "league's best Suns"...they were a 54-win team. Detroit had 64 wins that year, San Antonio had 63, and Dallas had 60. Phoenix wasn't even CLOSE to "league's best".

Bragging about losing to a mediocre 54-win team in the first round....

That same year, Lebron took the 63-win, defending champ Pistons to game 7 in the Conference Finals. You know who the starting Iineup was for those 3 wins?

Eric Snow, averaging 6 points and 2 assists a game on 42% shooting
Ron Murray, averaging 8 points a game on 33% shooting
Drew Gooden, averaging 8 points and 8 rebounds a game
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, averaging 10 points and 6 rebounds a game

That's a fukking horrible lineup, and yet Lebron took a team to 7 games who was MUCH better than the team that Kobe was playing against.

The next year, same lineup except that Larry Hughes and Sasha Pavlovic started instead of Snow and Murray...and Lebron took them to the Finals.

Kobe had one bad game LeBron came up small as fukk himself multiple times in postseason games includin not showin up in 4th quarters especially in the Finals so you don't wanna go down that road, you try to highlight Kobe's bad game and hold THAT against HIM yet sweep under the rug LeBron's several bad games over multiple postseasons and only bring up his performance last year to prove a futile point. It's mind numbin how stupid that is, just think about that.

Kobe has a shytload of horrific playoff games. A shytload of worthless 4th quarters. You really don't want to go down that road. Someone might pull out actual numbers.

 

[O.iatlhawksfan]

Look at most of the teammates you put for Kobe

Eddie Jones bruh

Rodman, Harper, grant, Payton, Malone were all past their prime.

I don't remember Butler doing anything with the Lakers I forgot he even played for them.

Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, love all in their prime. Nuff said

 

[Ben.]

Bad execution on this thread breh, I see the Kobe stans ducking some of the great posts though

 

[Shadow King]

Somebody said Bron is a system player

 

[Stack Money]

@ These butthurt Bron stans/Kobe haters in here writin novels, I knew those pics of the real stats would hit a nerve.

1) That graphic takes zero consideration into defense and how elite of a rim protector & post defender Shaq was, not to mention his dominance on the glass 2) need to add context about how much more frequently defenses keyed in on Shaq which gave Kobe more room to operate on the perimeter 3) That graphic is slightly off, Shaq led the team in scoring with 30 while Kobe sat at 29. Largely because of his dominance against the 76ers in the Finals where he rightfully earned FMVP.

Kobe didn't have just one bad game, he's generally been an inefficient finals performer throughout his career. Take a look at the two side by side and tell me if you notice a difference in performance on Kobe's side

KobeBryant:
37 games (23-14); 7 Finals; 5 Championships; 2x FMVP
42.7 MPG; 41% FG; 31% 3p; 88% FT; 25.3 PPG; 5.7 RPG; 5.1 APG; 1.8 SPG; 0.9 BPG

LeBronJames:
33 games (13-20); 6 Finals; 2 Championships; 2x FMVP
43.0 MPG; 45% FG; 33% 3p; 74% FT; 26.4 PPG; 9.6 RPG; 6.9 APG; 1.7 SPG; 0.5 BPG

So what exactly is it that Kobe's doing to get three more titles? Its for damn sure not performance. Is it possible that having Shaquille fukking O'Neal helped matters? Let's not even get into the 2000 championship where Kobe hadn't even come into his own as a player yet and that team still won it all on the back of arguably the most dominant player in league history.

I'm not downplaying Wade & Bosh at all as talents, but they just don't come close to what Shaq meant to Kobe as a teammate on those Lakers teams. That's what I'm getting at and you alluded to such here





This is the point! And you're using the three rings that he won on those teams which gave him far more support than LBJ has ever had to gloat about 5>2. Its not a maybe, LeBron never had the opportunity to say his teammate was the best player in the game. And what do you mean by "that Heat team", because Wade was a shell of himself after 2012. Averaged 15 points per game in the '13 postseason that Miami still won and Bosh, while definitely an extremely vital player to their success, was nothing more than an exceptional role player. He scored 0 points in the closeout game against the Spurs and averaged 11 for the series. Much of his worth to that team came defensively.

What happened in '14? LBJ was dominant avg 28 on 57% but his team still lost because Wade and the supporting players were largely terrible. Wade was getting killed defensively by everyone he guarded while struggling to generate his own offense, and Bosh wasn't contributing enough offensively to make a difference. No sane person would pin that Finals loss on LeBron when you look at how terribly literally everyone but him performed. It was the same thing in the '15 Finals where the team was horrific without him on the floor and could not generate any offense outside of him. Yet you'll hold these two losses against him huh.

And its a myth that LBJ comes up smaller than Kobe in the postseason during pressure situations, he has the highest ppg average in NBA history in back against the wall do or die elimination games while Kobe has averaged 22.9. LeBron has a better conversion rate than Kobe on potential go ahead or game tying shots in the postseason, but let's run with this theory of Kobe's clutchness being the reason he has more titles. Get real. In truth, LBJ is one of the greatest pressure players in NBA history.

Yeah Kobe got the Lakers to game 7 against the #1 seed in '06, and what happened in that game? LeBron's done similarly great things with poor support around him in his career. The point is that Kobe didn't have to work with shyt talent for very long. The Pau trade happened two years after that.

And I'm nowhere close to a LBJ dikkrider, just can't stand when people blind themselves to the truth because they don't want their favorite player to be overtaken by a player who's even greater. The 5>2 argument is nothing more than a stan that doesn't want to accept reality.

1) Kobe was elite defensively back then too, nikkas forget in his early days how great his defense was. 2) Need to stop ignorin that defenses had cats like Duncan to D up Shaq and cancel out his scorin on the other end of the floor but had no answer for Kobe, only time they faced a team wit a Guard that could do what Kobe could do that year was in the Finals wit AI which by no coincidence is the only time they lost a game. 3) That graphic was about the Western Conference playoffs Shaq ended up wit more points after the finals cause the Sixers didn't have a big man on Shaq's level which is why he was able to go off and get Finals MVP.

Kobe only had one game that bad in the Finals and those numbers you listed ain't that different especially when you take into account their competition and what teams they had, it's already been established Bron had better teams since he's been in the league and Kobe played against the best defense of this millennium in 04 while Bron stayed gettin punked by the Spurs a team Kobe constantly beat.:michaeljordanlaugh: You still desperately clingin to that "Shaquille fukking O'Neal" argument even after I gave you their side by side stats in 01 that showed Kobe wit slightly better numbers than the so called best player in the game at that time and Kobe hadn't even begun to "come into his own as a player" yet as you pointed out, but you'd rather talk about the 00 Finals and not look at the 01 playoffs in the west where they swept thru the Conference BECAUSE Kobe was unstoppable and teams didn't have a player like him even tho teams like the Spurs had big men that could cancel out Shaq's numbers at the other end.

Wade & Bosh meant even more to LeBron than Shaq did to Kobe cause Kobe won WITHOUT Shaq but LeBron couldn't win until he had Wade & Bosh and hasn't won since he left those guys, and even when he was wit them he only won 2 which is the same number Kobe won without Shaq. I said "maybe" those Shaq teams cause I know Kobe haters like you would try to argue those teams were better to discredit Kobe but overall the Heat were better they had 3 All Star options instead of 2 and their role players were better, you can't ignore the rings just cause you don't like the fact that it destroys your argument which is what you LeBron dikkriders are tryin to do. Like the NBA analysts said at that point a Wade that's not 100% is still better than most players in the league, and you say he was a shell of himself after 2012 which is why they only won 1 more time after that cause LeBron didn't have Wade to get him more rings. You try to downplay Bosh's impact by pointin out his points in the series yet admit that most of his impact came defensively which proves how vital he was to LeBron winnin cause defense is arguably more important than offense, thats the same type of impact you were whinin about the graphic I posted not takin into account wit Shaq yet wit Bosh you try to gloss over that same point cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

So you admit that LeBron didn't win in 14 cause Wade wasn't able to carry him to a victory, to borrow your words "THIS IS THE POINT!" LeBron was supposed to be the best player in the league and better than Kobe yet he needs Wade to play Batman in order to win.

It's a fact LeBron comes up smaller than Kobe in the postseason, you only focussin on certain situations like a game 7 or the final 2 minutes in games to make LeBron look better but there's been several games over the course of his career that he wasn't clutch and played too passive which is why people always killed him for it. You in complete denial about Kobe's clutchness there's a reason everyone compares him to Jordan and says he's the best since while people constantly say LeBron can never be like Mike cause he's not clutch like Mike, the big joke the first postseason run in Miami was LeBron not showin up in the 4th Quarter in multiple games that postseason it became a runnin gag yet you wanna talk like he's on MJ's level. Get real. In truth, LeBron ain't even on Magic's level cause even tho his PG play is Magic like from day one Magic always showed up and never had games where he disappeared or played like shyt when his team needed him the most.

I knew you would try to take a dig at that game 7 second half performance by Kobe but his team was playin like shyt way worse than you claim LeBron's teams have played, Kobe knew he couldn't win without those guys puttin forth an effort so he was tryna get them involved but they was scrubs so it didn't work the fact he even got them to that game is a testament to his greatness. Kobe played most of his prime wit shyt talent by the time the Pau trade happened he was at the end of his prime, meanwhile LeBron truly didn't have to work wit shyt talent for very long after his first year his teammates got better and they signed players/made trades to help him you don't win 50+/60+ games wit shyt talent even Jordan himself wouldn't be able to pull that off.

You clearly a LeBron dikkrider this post just proved itno one goes that hard for LeBron doin backflips in logic spinnin things and downplayin players to make LeBron look better without bein a huge stan. Ironically YOU the one thats blinded yourself to the truth cause you don't want your favorite player to not measure up to Kobe who's even greater, the 5>2 argument is statistical factswhinin about it and ignorin it is what a stan does when he doesn't want to accept reality.

1. takes a team to win
2. lebron has a better 3 pt %

1. LeBron had teams he couldn't win cause he wasn't as good
2. Kobe shoots the 3 better

How is it a bad thing to get shots up close when you're creating those shots yourself? Only Kobestans think it's an honor to keep missing 20-foot fadeaways because they have a higher degree of difficulty.

And Lebron's a 34% career shooter from 3pt. Kobe is only 32%. Might have to check yourself there.

I didn't say it was a bad thing dumbass I'm sayin its obviously easier to make shots up close and most of LeBrons points come that way while Kobe gets more points from longer distances, we were talkin about who the better shooter is and if you make shots from farther away you the better shooter. See thats what happens when Kobe haters jump into the middle of a convo so eager to hate on him you end up not understandin what's bein saidand the last couple years of injuries bein at the end of his career and playin on weak teams bring his numbers down but Kobe's 33% in both regular season and playoffs while Lebron is 31% in the playoffs so YOU have to check yourself there.

Kobe hater post

I love how those stats piss off Kobe haters, yall don't like to deal wit the cold hard truth cause it destroys your revisionist history about Shaq carryin him. Those numbers were from the entire Western playoffs and he was a defensive force at that time too, but lets ignore that and pretend Shaq was the only one playin defense and make reboundin the biggest stat cause a Center is obviously gonna get more rebounds than a guard.

That first championship run Kobe wasn't even KOBE yet and he still had 20-4-4 which is great for the Robin at the time, that first year is the only year the argument about Shaq bein hands down the biggest reason for them winnin is true.

I already pointed out to the other idiot that the finals where the Sixers didn't have a great big while they had AI to go against Kobe are the reason Shaq finished wit better numbers and got the Finals MVP, in reality the Western Conference finals WERE the finals back then cause the East was even more garbage than than it is now.

Uh, you do realize that Lebron has only had 1 year without them, and that was the year that Love/Irving got hurt so he ended up carrying TT and the Australian D-leaguer 6 games deep into the finals?

You do realize LeBron Love and Irving played like shyt most of their time together right?

OKC had Westbrook-Durant-Harden-Ibaka, and San Antonio had Duncan-Parker-Ginobli-Kawhi -Popovich and one of the best benches in history.

Who cares who the Thunder had they lost so they weren't even the best team in that Finals and Harden played like shyt so they didn't really have him anyway, and the fact that the Heat beat the Spurs one of those years is my point they were the best team in the league bein the champs and LeBron the nikka yall claim is the best player and better than Kobe let some cat name Kawhi lock him up on D and out play him in the Finals then let Andre Iguodala another guy he was guardin win finals MVP the next year.

Kobe hater post

I'm sayin look at how he took that shytty team to the 7th seed and forced a game 7, you right the Suns were the 2 seed meanin Kobe carried those scrubs to the #7 seed which is even better so thanks for clarifyin that.The Suns had a higher seed than Dallas since they won their division unlike Dallas so they were better than the Mavs that season.

LeBron's team that year was better than the Lakers team and played in the much easier East, and the Pistons weren't the defendin champs the Spurs were they beat the Pistons the previous year and Detroit wasn't the same Detroit by the time LeBron faced them that they were in 04 they weren't "much better" than the Suns at that point.

That supposedly horrible lineup won 50+ games in back to back years and got to the Finals don't try to downplay the team givin LeBron all the credit, thats what we talkin bout in here yall say its a team game when we point out Kobe's rings but when talkin bout LeBron you act like he did it all by himself. And you not even a LeBron dikkrider you just a Kobe hater makin you even more pathetic, at least those other morons are just stannin for their guy but you usin hypocritical contradictin arguments just to throw shade at the best since Jordan.

Kobe has a shytload of horrific playoff games. A shytload of worthless 4th quarters. You really don't want to go down that road. Someone might pull out actual numbers.

Kobe has a shytload of great playoff games and a shytload of GOAT 4th Quarters, you don't wanna go down that road cause someone might pull out the actual numbers like I did wit them graphics that made you catch feelins.

 

[Dominicansbelit]

brehs lebron has a better fg and 3 pt percentage than kobe... kobe has been blessed with great teams and phil jackson

 

[Stack Money]

brehs lebron has a better fg and 3 pt percentage than kobe... kobe has been blessed with great teams and phil jackson

 

[Consumed]

@ These butthurt Bron stans/Kobe haters in here writin novels, I knew those pics of the real stats would hit a nerve.


1) Kobe was elite defensively back then too, nikkas forget in his early days how great his defense was. 2) Need to stop ignorin that defenses had cats like Duncan to D up Shaq and cancel out his scorin on the other end of the floor but had no answer for Kobe, only time they faced a team wit a Guard that could do what Kobe could do that year was in the Finals wit AI which by no coincidence is the only time they lost a game. 3) That graphic was about the Western Conference playoffs Shaq ended up wit more points after the finals cause the Sixers didn't have a big man on Shaq's level which is why he was able to go off and get Finals MVP.

Kobe only had one game that bad in the Finals and those numbers you listed ain't that different especially when you take into account their competition and what teams they had, it's already been established Bron had better teams since he's been in the league and Kobe played against the best defense of this millennium in 04 while Bron stayed gettin punked by the Spurs a team Kobe constantly beat.:michaeljordanlaugh: You still desperately clingin to that "Shaquille fukking O'Neal" argument even after I gave you their side by side stats in 01 that showed Kobe wit slightly better numbers than the so called best player in the game at that time and Kobe hadn't even begun to "come into his own as a player" yet as you pointed out, but you'd rather talk about the 00 Finals and not look at the 01 playoffs in the west where they swept thru the Conference BECAUSE Kobe was unstoppable and teams didn't have a player like him even tho teams like the Spurs had big men that could cancel out Shaq's numbers at the other end.

Wade & Bosh meant even more to LeBron than Shaq did to Kobe cause Kobe won WITHOUT Shaq but LeBron couldn't win until he had Wade & Bosh and hasn't won since he left those guys, and even when he was wit them he only won 2 which is the same number Kobe won without Shaq. I said "maybe" those Shaq teams cause I know Kobe haters like you would try to argue those teams were better to discredit Kobe but overall the Heat were better they had 3 All Star options instead of 2 and their role players were better, you can't ignore the rings just cause you don't like the fact that it destroys your argument which is what you LeBron dikkriders are tryin to do. Like the NBA analysts said at that point a Wade that's not 100% is still better than most players in the league, and you say he was a shell of himself after 2012 which is why they only won 1 more time after that cause LeBron didn't have Wade to get him more rings. You try to downplay Bosh's impact by pointin out his points in the series yet admit that most of his impact came defensively which proves how vital he was to LeBron winnin cause defense is arguably more important than offense, thats the same type of impact you were whinin about the graphic I posted not takin into account wit Shaq yet wit Bosh you try to gloss over that same point cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

So you admit that LeBron didn't win in 14 cause Wade wasn't able to carry him to a victory, to borrow your words "THIS IS THE POINT!" LeBron was supposed to be the best player in the league and better than Kobe yet he needs Wade to play Batman in order to win.

It's a fact LeBron comes up smaller than Kobe in the postseason, you only focussin on certain situations like a game 7 or the final 2 minutes in games to make LeBron look better but there's been several games over the course of his career that he wasn't clutch and played too passive which is why people always killed him for it. You in complete denial about Kobe's clutchness there's a reason everyone compares him to Jordan and says he's the best since while people constantly say LeBron can never be like Mike cause he's not clutch like Mike, the big joke the first postseason run in Miami was LeBron not showin up in the 4th Quarter in multiple games that postseason it became a runnin gag yet you wanna talk like he's on MJ's level. Get real. In truth, LeBron ain't even on Magic's level cause even tho his PG play is Magic like from day one Magic always showed up and never had games where he disappeared or played like shyt when his team needed him the most.

I knew you would try to take a dig at that game 7 second half performance by Kobe but his team was playin like shyt way worse than you claim LeBron's teams have played, Kobe knew he couldn't win without those guys puttin forth an effort so he was tryna get them involved but they was scrubs so it didn't work the fact he even got them to that game is a testament to his greatness. Kobe played most of his prime wit shyt talent by the time the Pau trade happened he was at the end of his prime, meanwhile LeBron truly didn't have to work wit shyt talent for very long after his first year his teammates got better and they signed players/made trades to help him you don't win 50+/60+ games wit shyt talent even Jordan himself wouldn't be able to pull that off.

You clearly a LeBron dikkrider this post just proved itno one goes that hard for LeBron doin backflips in logic spinnin things and downplayin players to make LeBron look better without bein a huge stan. Ironically YOU the one thats blinded yourself to the truth cause you don't want your favorite player to not measure up to Kobe who's even greater, the 5>2 argument is statistical factswhinin about it and ignorin it is what a stan does when he doesn't want to accept reality.

At this point "Kobe hater" is just a synonym for fair critic. I don't hate Kobe, its between he & Dirk for my favorite player all time and I'll be the first to defend him in any comparison that doesn't involve a player actually superior to him which LeBron is. Your only rebuttal to that seems to be "rings" which is stupid. I have a HUGE problem with arguments that start with "he got more rings" when its teams that win championships.



1) Kobe was an exceptional perimeter defender, but that's not the same as being a strong interior defender. It's the reason big men generally carry more defensive influence than guards - Kobe could not be tasked with cleaning up the mistakes of his teammates when they allowed penetration or to intimidate slashers at the rim like Shaq could and did. He was the last line of defense and had far more control over the success of the Lakers defense than Kobe 2) It wasn't just Duncan, but the combination of Duncan and Robinson (Imo, GOAT defensive PF) in what's got to be the greatest defensive frontcourt in league history forming a bracket around Shaq because he was the priority for their defense and he STILL averaged 27 per game. It took that type of defense to "contain" him and dominance was the end result. If anything, his performance under those circumstances simply adds to his greatness 3) The Sixers actually had the defensive player of the year Dikembe Mutumbo and on the season held the 5th ranked defense in the league. Shaq dominated him anyway though because it hardly mattered who he was matched up with individually. Lakers lost to Philly in G1 because Iverson went berserk and while Shaq dropped 40, here comes Kobe scoring 15 points on 22 shots. But lets deflect blame and act like its somehow a knock against Shaq that they lost that game. Insane.

Kobe didn't have "slightly better numbers" are you ignoring his dominant impact on the glass and defensively? Shaq put up 30.1, 15 rebs with an insane 5 coming on the offensive glass (the man could not be boxed out) and 2.4 blocks that postseason. Shaq was clearly the most productive Laker and its not that close. If you have to simplify your argument to just ppg then you know you've lost. Kobe could not and did not pose the same threat to defenses that Shaq did on the inside with his dominance. I'm not sure why you'd use a graphic that doesn't take into account the Finals.

No, it hasn't been established that Bron has had better teams than Kobe. He never played on a team as good as those three peat Lakers! It's delusional to think that he did, and its not even just Shaq who has a case for most dominant player ever but having the arguable greatest coach in league history Phil Jackson as a tactician who you've given zero acknowledgement to. You say Miami had better role players but you just pulled that out of your ass. Fisher/Grant/Horry/Fox/Harper from the '01 team alone is a better combination than anything Miami ever had around the big three.

Kobe's Lakers were terrible without Shaq (would barely even make the playoffs in today's West) until he added an all NBA big man in Pau Gasol, several quality role players (including Ron Artest when they got bounced in the '08 Finals) + Phil Jackson returned to coach. LeBron didn't get anything close to that type of support until he landed in Miami, and even then his biggest support player (Wade) ran into health issues that damaged their championship chances.

So you admit that LeBron didn't win in 14 cause Wade wasn't able to carry him to a victory, to borrow your words "THIS IS THE POINT!" LeBron was supposed to be the best player in the league and better than Kobe yet he needs Wade to play Batman in order to win

This is facebook comment bad. LeBron was the "batman" in all but one of his Finals appearances (more than you can say about Kobe) and you'd have to be a dumbass to think otherwise, seriously. Wade never carried him anywhere. Did he need Wade to play well to win? Yeah, you generally need some fukking help to win a championship and unfortunately Wade was anything but that in '14. He was literally a net negative on the floor, that Wade was NOT better than most NBA players in this league he was awful I don't give a damn what analysts say. And if you say that he needs Wade to carry him and then acknowledge that he was a shell of himself after '12, what fukking sense does it make to acknowledge the title he won the following season in spite of that?

The obvious difference between Bosh and Shaq here is that you're trying to argue that Kobe was the best player in the league and I am giving you context to that horrible statistic by explaining how Shaq impacted the game in ways not shown there. You're the one providing a graphic thats not only incorrect, but incomplete. Shaq is one of the all time greats, Bosh was a high end role player. There's no comparison to be made there. Lets not ignore how vital LeBron was to Miami's scrambling, aggressive defense as well (Better than Kobe has ever been).

So if its a fact that Kobe comes up smaller than Bron in the playoffs prove it to me. Because this says otherwise

When facing elimination

Lebron 31.4 ppg, 46.5% FG, 10 RPG, 6.3 APG, 45 MPG, 6-7 W/L
Jordan 31.3 ppg, 44.5% FG, 7.9 RPG, 7 APG, 41.6 MPG, 6-7 W/L
Kobe 21.5 ppg, 41.4% FG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 9 -10 W/L

Game 7s

Lebron 34 ppg, 46.5% FG, 8.1 RPG, 3.5 APG, 2-2 W/L
Jordan 33.3 ppg, 45.7% FG, 7,7 RPG, 7 APG, 2-1 W/L
Kobe 22.2 ppg, 38,9% FG, 8 RPG, 5 APG, 5-1 W/L

And even if you dismiss all of that for whatever reason, LBJ has better postseason averages than Kobe too. But yeah, lets run with that overplayed narrative that Kobe is some clutch god while LBJ has issues. Thats false. People say he's the best since Jordan because they share similarities in playstyle, demeanor, and its a trendy topic part due to the fact that he plays for the most popular franchise in the league with fans in every pocket of the nation willing to discuss this endlessly rehashed subject. Not because its actually true. Its not.

In truth, LeBron ain't even on Magic's level cause even tho his PG play is Magic like from day one Magic always showed up and never had games where he disappeared or played like shyt when his team needed him the most

LOL well you just exposed yourself and your knowledge on this subject



Familiar with the nickname "Tragic Johnson"? He'd have gotten crucified for this in todays social media age. But lets just act like LeBrons the only all time great with the occasional faux pas on a big stage. his triumphs as an individual FAR outweigh the failures.

Kobe was in the middle of his peak when the Pau trade happened. '08 was arguably the best season he's ever had in his career (followed by a brilliant '09 and then '10 in the playoffs), I'd expect a Kobe stan to know that. Don't make it seem like he got help when he was exiting his prime or anything, man was still a monster.

Cleveland really didn't start to surround LBJ with the talent he needed to thrive until 2009, and even then they paled in comparison to what Kobe had to work with on his respective team. Man averages 38 a fukking game in the ECF and still loses in six because Dwight Howard absolutely demolishes their frontcourt with 24/13. Dwight plays the Lakers in the Finals against a tougher frontcourt, something Kobe had ZERO to do with, and can only manage 15/12. Dwight plays that bad against Cleveland and they're the ones in the Finals providing a better matchup against LA. Too bad he didn't have the big men teammates to slow him down to the same degree, but I'm sure you'll try to spin this into a negative on LBJ.

 

[Stack Money]

A ton of bullshyt dikkridin LeBron

Another novel, you on LeBron's dikk like you his girl. Kobe hater is the accurate name for the spinsters ain't nothin fair about their criticism, :michaeljordanlaugh:@ you basically sayin you a fan and you'll defend him in any comparison that doesn't involve your man LeBron. LeBron is not superior to Kobe YOUR only rebuttal is "rings don't matter" which is stupid cause those teams wouldn't win without him he's the main reason for the rings. You have a huge problem wit those arguments cause you can't refute them so you throw a hissy fit in typical Bron stan fashion, you cry about it bein a team accomplishment yet try to give LeBron credit for winnin 50-60+ games in a season which is the definition of a team accomplishment you expose yourself as bein a hypocritical LeBron stan wit that argument.

1) Kobe was a lockdown defender that could take the best player on the opposin team, he would defend AI T-Mac and Carter which are players Shaq couldn't guard cause he was protectin the rim. The players that Kobe's teammates allowed to get to the rim weren't that good Kobe was stickin the best those other guys were usually role players so sayin Shaq stopped them from scorin don't mean shyt, if it weren't for Kobe those superstar guards woulda been droppin 60 on the Lakers and they wouldn't have 3-peated. 2) Duncan was the main one guardin him Robinson wasn't even on all those Spurs teams and was way past his prime by the end of the 3-peat, Duncan was the one that could cancel out Shaq's scorin on the other end by puttin up like numbers wit his scorin and reboundin.

3) Knew you would bring up Mutombo he was at the end of his prime by then and couldn't score offensively so Shaq didn't have to work at the other end of the floor unlike Kobe guardin AI, you try to throw shade at Kobe's numbers but he was stickin the Sixers best player while Shaq could take off on defense and just use his energy on offense allowin him to beast when a team finally had no big men to deal wit him. When those teams in the West had big men that stopped Shaq from scorin alot by makin him work on both ends of the floor Kobe stepped up and put up numbers winnin the game but YOU want to deflect blame and act like its somehow a knock against Kobe when Shaq can't do the same in the Finals, it was his turn to bail Kobe out now that he had the advantage as a Center wit no competition after Kobe had the advantage before wit no guards to answer him but all you lookin at is that was Kobe's man. Insane.

Kobe did have slightly better numbers in those stats you are ignorin the fact that a Center is obviously gonna have more rebounds so you intentionally hangin onto that stat, and defensively Kobe was just as good able to lock up those other guards in the West. Shaq wasn't clearly the most productive Laker those stats prove it if you have to simplify your argument to just rebounds you know you've lost, Kobe wasn't a CENTER you idiot of course he didn't pose a threat on the inside Shaq didn't pose a threat on the perimeter so by your dumbass logic that automatically means Kobe was more dangerous to defenses. You still butthurt by that graphic it was to show you idiots that claim Shaq carried Kobe are not only wrong but Kobe had better numbers so all that talk about Kobe bein the clear cut Robin is bullshyt, the fact it makes you haters emotional means it did its job and you bytchin about reboundin not bein in the stats but neither are assists which Kobe had way more of but of course you'd ignore that stat cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

It has been established that LeBron had better teams even one of your fellow slurpers admitted as much, LeBron never had a team as bad as those Lakers in Kobe's prime which he played wit for several seasons and its arguable that Miami team was better overall than the 3-peat Lakers. No one gives acknowledgement to coaches we talkin bout the players but Miami had Pat Riley who was no doubt involved behind the scenes in the coachin strategies and he also one of the greatest coaches in league history, and the Heat had great role players you just pulled that statement about the 01 Lakers out of your ass those dudes are not a better combination than anyone the Heat had around the big 3. Sidenote: You catchin a ton of feelins right now

You provin my point those teams Kobe had to play wit were awful yet he got them to the playoffs as a 7 seed, LeBron didn't need anythin close to that type of support cause he didn't have a team that horrific his teams were always in the discussion for best in the East and they also played in the weaker conference. Yeah Wade not bein healthy damaged LeBron's chances of gettin more rings, just like I said LeBron can't do it without Wade.

Kobe was Batman in at least 2 finals appearances wit Gasol so thats not more than you can say about Kobe, you'd have to be a dumbass to think LeBron was Batman in more finals appearances than Kobe when Kobe's Batman roles won 2 rings and Bron got one of his rings wit a healthy Wade as the Batman. You goin full retard right now gettin all emotional screamin about you don't care what analyst who are former players and coaches say as if you know more than they do, you obviously wrong about Wade but you don't want to admit he's better than most of the league even when not 100% cause you so desperate to suck off LeBron.

Like I just pointed out Kobe impacted the game in ways not shown there too but you just want to focus on reboundin, the graphic isn't incorrect those were the actual numbers and it wasn't incomplete cause it wasn't tryin to show anythin other than what it showed but even if we pulled up reboundin and assists Shaq lead one category and Kobe lead the other so it evens out and proves it was arguable that Kobe was the best in the league. You still hung up on tryna discredit that graphic cause it destroys your argument which is the purpose of me pullin that up, whenever someone tries to downtalk Kobe's impact nikkas just have to post that to end the bullshyt. The comparison is you whinin about Shaq's reboundin and defense not bein takin into consideration then turn around and not take Bosh's reboundin and defense into consideration when jerkin off LeBron, it doesn't matter that Shaq was a better player the point is you only care about those stats when its used against Kobe but want to ignore those same stats when it can be used against your man LeBron. And LeBron's defense is not better than early Kobe's LeBron couldn't even stop Kawhi Leonard and Andre Iguodala from gettin theirs and winnin Finals MVP.

See there you go wit half truths to make your idol LeBron look better, you pointin out shyt like "when facin elimination" and "game 7s" when there's more to the playoffs than just those situations but you want to pretend its the same thing we talkin about. He came up small as hell in several games his last postseason in his first Cavs run his play was weak and everyone wondered if it was his elbow or his moms gettin fukked by Delonte West that caused him to play like shyt, then you can look at his first postseason wit the Heat where he routinely went missin in 4th Quarters but your stats conveniently don't take those things into account. Funny you talk about the graphic I posted not tellin the full story yet it tells way more than those pieces of stats that you just pulled out, but we already know you a hypocrite this just further solidifies it. You cryin and flailin your arms cause nikkas point out LeBron ain't as clutch as Kobe and desperately tryna convince yourself it ain't true cause you don't wanna admit your idol is weak, you wanna pretend Kobe ain't the best since Jordan when its obvious to everyone but LeBron dikkriders that he is you need to dry your tears and accept the fact that its true.

YOU just exposed yourself and your knowledge on this subject, hell you posted the video and STILL don't see that my statement is true. Magic never had games where he disappeared or played like shyt, Tragic Johnson came from bad plays and missed FTs at the end of that game not for goin ghost in the 4th Quarter like LeBron or playin horribly the entire game he was great up til that point.

Kobe was at the end of his prime by then he had a few seasons left at the top of his game but they wasted most of his prime wit Kwame Brown and Luke Walton, unlike you I'm not a stan I'm just tellin it like it is and can't stand dikkriders that spin shyt to support their feeble arguments.

LeBron still had better teams than Kobe had before then, Kobe had finally gotten a respectable team lord knows he didn't have that the entire time LeBron had way better teams up til that point. Now you cryin some more about LeBron losin to Dwight in the East Finals when that team was booty outside of him, Ima ignore what you stans and the media says about LeBron bein able to guard all five positions and just acknowledge LeBron can't guard Dwight but he damn sure can cancel out whatever he scores on the other end of the floor like Kobe did. LeBron was already gettin called the best player in the league at that point so he shoulda beasted against that Magic team not let Rashard Lewis and Turkeyglue stop him, and don't try to act like Gasol is some defensive beast comparable to Shaq he was always called Gasoft for a reason he didn't shut down Dwight but Kobe torched those other Magic players who weren't on his level which is what LeBron should've done but couldn't do yet you say he's better than Kobe.Kobe didn't win that cause he had another big man that was defensively a monster Gasol is an offensive player his defense is usually shakey, but you wanna spin shyt once again to take credit away from Kobe by makin up bullshyt about big men carryin him when that narrative has been destroyed in here already.

 

[catskill247]

LeGM chose his teams though. King Kobe didn't. You might wanna delete this thread and try again. There is a shyt load missing.

Kobe had a GM that was smart enough to pick the right teammates for him.
Lebron didn't so he picked them him self.
Wouldn't you do the same?

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

Kobe had a GM that was smart enough to pick the right teammates for him.
Lebron didn't so he picked them him self.
Wouldn't you do the same?

Lbron told the gm who to pick. Don't get it twisted. He co-signed on everyone he played with and rejected those he didn't like.

 

[catskill247]

Lbron told the gm who to pick. Don't get it twisted. He co-signed on everyone he played with and rejected those he didn't like.

So Lebron shut down the trade for a decent Phoenix Suns Amare for JJ Hickson around 2008/2009, I remember reading the Cavs staff felt Hickson would turn out to be something.

During Brons first year it was obvious you put the right pieces around him you would win. The cavs dropped the ball with that. He didn't become LeGM until later on in his career.Dont get it twisted.

 

[Consumed]

Has gone over the character limit so @Stack Money

No, I'll defend him in any comparison with a player he's actually better than. That's not Kobe exclusive, it goes for every player to have played this game.

My rebuttal isn't rings don't matter, its that they're heavily circumstantial and shouldn't be used as a measure of individual player greatness. A player shouldn't be knocked because of a ring count when they on average play outstanding in the postseason (LeBron is literally one of the greatest postseason performers ever, same with Charles Barkley) but their teams don't play up to par enough for them to win it all. KG didn't win his lone title until he landed on a team with great support around him, and he'd have zero had he stayed in Minny. You need help to win, and ring comparisons usually come down to X player got more help than another (when the two players are on comparable levels, at least).

I never gave LBJ the sole credit for winning 50-60 games in a season. Read again, I said when Cleveland began to surround him with the pieces he needed they had great success. No need for the strawman. Man, this is funny because I'm not close to a LBJ fan. You apparently just can't handle any argument that destroys your position.

1) The most important aspect of defense, especially against superstar scorers like T Mac & Iverson who NO ONE could stop 1on1 let alone Kobe, is help defense. They need to be double teamed and when they get to the basket, which they can do at will (especially AI with his penetration), it was up to the Lakers help defense including Shaq to make their attempt as difficult as possible if not erase it completely. To say that Kobe's a better defender because he didn't guard T mac or Iverson out on the perimeter is silly, both were phenomenal inside players that had no issue beating players 1on1 to get penetration. No need for the hyperbole that the Lakers would surrender 60 to those guards every night, that's dumb and of course they wouldn't have three peated without Kobe, I'm not diminishing his role but saying he just wasn't Shaq and most importantly he played next to the most dominant player ever which played a huge reason as to why he got those three titles.

2) Robinson often provided help on Shaq, the two collaborated to guard him and he didn't retire until the Spurs 2nd championship season in 2003. I'm only speaking of the threepeat era, Shaq was no longer the best player in the game after that. This "cancel out" stuff doesn't make sense, for one I would consider Duncan to be better than Kobe too and second he was right behind Shaq for best player in the league at the time so who cares if he managed to match him. 3) The way Shaq got mauled by defenders on a regular basis you shouldn't be bringing up energy, getting smacked every possession by giants desperate to stop your inside dominance takes a lot out of you not to mention playing the role of a strong weakside defender and having to muscle your way in the post to get inside position against other 7 footers which takes less energy than taking 18 foot jumpshots. No need to even get into the difference in conditioning levels between the two. Lol at it being Shaq's "turn", he didn't have any advantage that Kobe didn't have himself. Kobe was and could not be guarded by Iverson, his performance is not hindered by him in even the slightest. Guys like AI and T Mac did not make his job as a scorer harder. Shaq was the one getting doubled with more frequency than anyone in the entire association. He consistently had harder matchups.

3) Dominant rebounding is a part of defense dumbass, that ends possession for the opposition. You can measure its impact relative to a perimeter player, and it's another reason why you don't just say Kobe has comparable defensive impact. You cannot ignore it, he was dominant on the glass in addition to leading the team in scoring each postseason run with a greater level of efficiency DESPITE getting doubled far more frequently. What does position have to do with posing a threat on the inside? Jordan was as dominant a finisher as Shaq relative to his position, as is LeBron James. All three have hit upwards of 70% at the rim throughout their prime careers. Its not their fault Kobe couldn't reach that same level of inside dominance. Shaq didn't need to pose a threat from the perimeter when he was the most effective the game has ever seen in the paint, which every team in the league designs their defense to protect the opposing team from getting to and scoring from.

No that graphic thats not stops short of the entire postseason and purposely leaves out certain statistics to make Kobe look better does not prove anything. And if you want to use stats, you can judge production very well by PER which tracks stat accumulation on a per minute basis.

2000 postseason

Shaq - 30.5
Kobe - 19.7

2001 postseason

Shaq - 28.7
Kobe - 25.0

2002 postseason

Shaq - 29.7
Kobe - 23.2

Go ahead and try to spin that around somehow.

You still butthurt by that graphic it was to show you idiots that claim Shaq carried Kobe are not only wrong but Kobe had better numbers so all that talk about Kobe bein the clear cut Robin is bullshyt, the fact it makes you haters emotional means it did its job and you bytchin about reboundin not bein in the stats but neither are assists which Kobe had way more of but of course you'd ignore that stat cause it doesn't fit your narrative

Nobody is mad at an incomplete graphic with zero context and this post is so hypocritical. How can you sit here and say that LeBron needed Wade to carry him to championships, and then get into your feelings when anyone suggests Shaq carried Kobe when Shaq was at the top of the league for three years and Wade rapidly declining with each progressing season to the point where he wasn't even top 15. I never even said Shaq carried Kobe, I consider that to be a very disrespectful phrase especially when they were both top three players in the game post 2000. Kobe had 1.3 more apg in 2000, 2.9 in 2001 and 1.8 in 2002. Thats not "way more" and Shaq's apg was phenomenal for a center, man is truly one of the GOAT big man passers and a bit underrated in that aspect.

You keep saying that its been established that LBJ had better teams without actually establishing anything. You can't just state things without a credible argument as if its a fact. LeBron's Cavs in '06 were as bad as Kobe's support post Shaq pre Gasol. You can look at the name Larry Hughes and claim thats help, but he shot 31% in the playoffs and was a clear bust as an acquisition. Lamar Odom was a damn good role player, and better than anyone LBJ had on his team at the time including Big Z. How is it arguable that his Miami teams were better than the three peat Lakers? Seriously, explain this. You should give acknowledgment to the coaches theyre responsible for the schemes executed on both ends of the court and managing personalities on the team. Pat Riley was much more involved as a general manager than coach, Spoelstra had full control over the gameplan and he does not come close to Phil as a tactician. Again, explain how that combination of role players isn't better than the Heat's supporting cast around Miami. They didn't have anyone better than Horry or Grant, Fisher is better than anyone they had in their backcourt, Fox is better than any of their wings, Harper would be perfect for their defensive scheme and probably their best perimeter defender during the later portions of the Heat era.

You're just a homer if you think LBJ hasn't played on Cleveland teams with little to no support like Kobe in the '06 season. Straight up. The '06 Cavs were exactly that. His teams were not always in the discussion for best in the East and were no better than 4th in seeding until 2007.

I don't think you're getting anything thats being stated here if you're still mocking LBJ for Wade, the second best player on the team, for being hurt. Thats kinda important. Again, don't dodge this question, how many rings does Kobe have if Pau is severely limited with injury or Shaq is a shell of himself. Its a rhetorical question.

Kobe was Batman in at least 2 finals appearances wit Gasol so thats not more than you can say about Kobe, you'd have to be a dumbass to think LeBron was Batman in more finals appearances than Kobe when Kobe's Batman roles won 2 rings and Bron got one of his rings wit a healthy Wade as the Batman. You goin full retard right now gettin all emotional screamin about you don't care what analyst who are former players and coaches say as if you know more than they do, you obviously wrong about Wade but you don't want to admit he's better than most of the league even when not 100% cause you so desperate to suck off LeBron

So apparently you're under the delusion that Batman means you win a ring. Thats false, LBJ fulfilled that role in the '12'-'15 Finals as the unquestionable best player on the court. You might be asking yourself how one can be the best player on either team in four finals and yet walk away with two rings, well this is where teammates come into question and why its stupid to pretend as though rings are the end all be all when who you play with directly influences the number of rings you have. "At least two finals appearances" for Kobe is cute. No, I'm not wrong about Wade he was god awful in those Finals and former players aren't any less subject to bias as us fans. Watch some episodes of Open Court and tell me these guys should be respected as some beacon for perfect basketball judgement. Their opinions are no less valuable than our own.

LBJ's ability to defend the post, switch, stick to his man like glue on the perimeter being impervious to screens and provide strong help defense acting as a rim protector has provided enormous value for his teams D throughout his defensive prime. Kobe just never came close to being the disruptive force that he was. Sure, as the years went on LBJ's intensity declined but since you're cleverly using early Kobe only as a defender, use LBJ from '09 and then seriously suggest to me Kobe ever hit a level greater than that. Man had a real case for DPOY that year as his team was an incredible 8 points worse defensively without him on the court. He anchored the #3 defense in the league.

Those stats aren't half truths, those are actual playoff circumstances where the pressure is at its greatest. Game 7's and elimination games are great ways to measure a players dominance in the playoffs. The stats DO take into account his failures with Miami in 2011, its just that he's generally been so reliable that they're nothing more than a blip on the radar. I knew you'd ignore this though to push your narrative.

Magic was 5-14 from the field and was the 3rd best player on his own team that game. In what universe is that not disappearing. Magic is one of the most efficient scorers ever and came up incredibly small in the closeout game. Its obvious you only hold this standard to LBJ and no one else.

No, Kobe was in the middle of his prime. At no point was he better than he was in '08 or '09 postseasons where he completely destroyed the Western Conference with some of the most dominant offensive exhibitions this game has ever seen. He didn't do Phoenix like that in '06, and wasn't as smart of a player as he would later become in his near 30's. Its just another case of a player maturing his game as he grows older. Don't leave out Lamar Odom when you mention Kobe's teammates by the way, he was fantastic for them on both ends of the floor.

Now you cryin some more about LeBron losin to Dwight in the East Finals when that team was booty outside of him, Ima ignore what you stans and the media says about LeBron bein able to guard all five positions and just acknowledge LeBron can't guard Dwight but he damn sure can cancel out whatever he scores on the other end of the floor like Kobe did. LeBron was already gettin called the best player in the league at that point so he shoulda beasted against that Magic team not let Rashard Lewis and Turkeyglue stop him, and don't try to act like Gasol is some defensive beast comparable to Shaq he was always called Gasoft for a reason he didn't shut down Dwight but Kobe torched those other Magic players who weren't on his level which is what LeBron should've done but couldn't do yet you say he's better than Kobe.Kobe didn't win that cause he had another big man that was defensively a monster Gasol is an offensive player his defense is usually shakey, but you wanna spin shyt once again to take credit away from Kobe by makin up bullshyt about big men carryin him when that narrative has been destroyed in here already."

1) That Magic team was very well constructed outside of Howard. They were 7th in three point percentage (on huge volume) and then complimented their perimeter attack with a big man that was dominant in the P&R, destroyed the offensive glass granting the team extra opportunities and could demand double team inside. Defensively, they were the best in the league thanks to Howard influence. So you had a great defense and an offense that could bomb 3's on you plus score inside. Thats a damn good basketball team and its no surprise they won 59 games that year.

2) LBJ can't guard all five positions, that's always been a wild myth. Not sure why you assumed I believed that

3) LeBron averaged 38.3 ppg 8.3rpg 8.0apg 1.2spg 1.2bpg against Orlando in that conference Finals on 59 TS%. What the actual fukk are you talking about. Cavs lost because they didn't have the support around Bron that Kobe did. Kobe didn't do anything that LBJ didn't do himself if not better.

4) Pau Gasol was a very good post defender and had the length/size to guard a player like Dwight 1on1 because of his lack of counter moves. His issues were more in the P&R than anything but the Lakers usually paired him with a big man that could more capably cover. Remember, Bynum was on that team as well, and Odom was a phenomenal small ball four

5) You've used the word carry more than I have. Never said Kobe got carried, but that he's had more support than LBJ which have directly led to his greater ring count which is correct.