Sorry Coli Socialists, Black Capitalism is the only way

[Wild self]

Can't stop nikkas from living their best life, what we can do is put an action place so nikkas can do better and maintain.

Its breaking away from MEDIA PROGRAMMING and INDOCTRINATION of Europeans. That "best" life is subjective.

 

[Wildhundreds]

Too many Black people think in defense instead of offense. No backbone when it comes to competing Economically

You know what limits Corporation's power? Competition
The preference needs to be on strengthening the Small Businesses. That is the ONLY way the Corporations can't create a monopoly on production and supply. And Small Businesses are the main reason why communities and neighborhoods gain wealth. Job creation will skyrocket with more Small Businesses thriving
Put a Walmart in the middle of a neighborhood. See how poorer that community becomes. Because no money is circulating into the community. They are going instead to their offshore bank accounts with lower tax rates

If Black people don't want to economically compete in this Capitalistic system, that is their right. But just know you will be permanent 2nd Class citizens

In this whole discussion the black consumer hasn't been brought up yet.

I know black nail technicians who try to compete with the Koreans but they can't because they charge a few dollars more. You have a few black businesses out here, but a lot of black people in certian areas will not patronize them in large numbers.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Claimed no one in this thread.

what were you referencing in that quote then.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

False.
Black economics is closer to collectivism than socialism, and can work within a larger capitalist society.

Socialism falls in the realm of Collectivism as well as communism. Capitalism falls under individualism.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

I brought up benefits because within said community, any benefits that a person receives from the government, they'd use it within the community. Not outside of the community. An example would be that under medicare, they provide a ride for the recipient to get to and from the doctor's appointments. Those rides are paid for by that program to the transportation company. In my city SCR is the company that provides this service. But anyone who can provide transportation with certified vehicles can provide the service and get some of that money as well. And those who are good in politics and dealing with elected officials can make that happen.

Its a ton of money to be made at the state level with grants, but since black people are so divided and cant pool money together to have the infrastructure to receive the money. We get left in the cold. But thats one of many examples of how we can build our own economic engine.

So we're not disagreeing at all then.

 

[Wildhundreds]

So we're not disagreeing at all then.

Not at all. I believe you actually have to include all of the ideologies due to the nuances of people in a community.

 

[DEAD7]

Socialism falls in the realm of Collectivism as well as communism. Capitalism falls under individualism.

Agreed.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Spoiler

1. Explain what the criticisms of Prof Baradaran were in detail

2. Your 2nd question starts off on the wrong foot and assumes every type of activity isn't for self interest or profit. That is what the point I am making, the mentality surrounding Capitalism has to change. How can anyone start and run a business WITHOUT wanting to increase profits? The media likes to promote movies like Wolf of Wall St and Barbarians at the Gate and Bernie Madoff type folks as a symbolism of Capitalism. To the average person, Amazon and Walmart = Capitalism. You know the Doctor in your community that heals people is a Small Business owner right? You know the Lawyer with their own practice is a Small Business owner right? You know the local Tax guy that makes sure you get your refund is a Small Business Owner right?
The Plumber that comes fixes your house? The Landscaper? Etc etc etc?... If they are not profitable, how would they be able to serve you better?

3. How can it lead to a small subset of elitist groups when anyone can start a business?

57+ Small Business Statistics to Be Aware of | Fortunly

"It takes only four days to start a small business in the United States."

"More small businesses are structured as sole proprietorships than as any other kind of business: 23.5 million (73%)"

And anyone can start a Private Equity Fund, Hedge Fund, Venture Capital Fund, Bank, Credit Union, etc etc. And on top of that there are Fund Lawyers, Bank Regulators, and Fund Administrators that you can hire that are a 3rd party not connected to any party to safeguard the funds

Thanks for your answer.

1. I can't reasonably copy the whole book in a Coli thread, so I'll sum up some points I remember:

• Neither money nor market are independent from the state and political power, which created the inequality we're discussing. It is a fallacious myth, built in part by white policy makers, to believe that self-suffiency, under the guise of Black capitalism or Black group economics, will fix a macro-level of this size that was institutionally created
• Black banks in particular cannot retain the Black dollar nor generate sufficient wealth. Prof. Baradaran makes a deep dive into Black banks' balance sheets and shows that one main issue, is that banks make money on loans for property. Problem is, Black property decreases in value because it is Black. Assets being on loans to home, Black banks just don't make money.
• She shows that the period between 1910 and 1930, when most of Black banks were created in totally segregated spaces, was the best time for this community empowerment model to work, but it didn't. Which begs the question: if Black group economics haven't worked during segregation where they were mandatory by necessity, why would they work now? 5 Black children out of 10 were in deep poverty when the Chicago riots occurred... Only 9% of white children.
• The reality of wealth building in America is that it was always accompanied with federal government subsidies and this type of state support. Not just the free market. Homestead Act, New Deal...
• The rhetoric that you use is not new: from Andrew Jackson vetoing reparations and justifying it by saying that Black people would engage in the free market and buy land themselves (and giving Black folks the Freed Men Saving Bank to teach Black folks about capitalism and how to exploit it... ended up being a disaster), through Nixon who said enough with the civil rights, let's talk Black capitalism, to the OG neoliberals who accompanied him and promoted the free market as a reaction to civil rights and talks about reparations, to Reagan, Clinton and his empowerment zones... The method hasn't shown historical success. Why would it work now?

I really recommend you the book if you're genuinely interested by the topic and want to challenge your own view.

2. This doesn't address the challenge. Even if it was true, so what? Black capitalism: x Black company offers y service in the community. There's more money to be made in such white community. x Black company moves to such white community for profit. That's capitalism working perfectly fine and defeating the purpose of a supposedly Black capitalism. You can switch the scenario with "there's more money to be made by selling z service to the community, with z being a harmful service", or with other groups straight up buying the company.

3. Everybody can't start a business because not everybody has the talents or the desire necessary to the creation and maintenance of a successful business. But that's not the problem here: I'm talking about Black group economics as a whole concept. Capitalism leads to winners and losers and the wealth accumulate on the top. Why would Black capitalism be any different?

 

[UpAndComing]

Thanks for your answer.

1. I can't reasonably copy the whole book in a Coli thread, so I'll sum up some points I remember:

• Neither money nor market are independent from the state and political power, which created the inequality we're discussing. It is a fallacious myth, built in part by white policy makers, to believe that self-suffiency, under the guise of Black capitalism or Black group economics, will fix a macro-level of this size that was institutionally created
• Black banks in particular cannot retain the Black dollar nor generate sufficient wealth. Prof. Baradaran makes a deep dive into Black banks' balance sheets and shows that one main issue, is that banks make money on loans for property. Problem is, Black property decreases in value because it is Black. Assets being on loans to home, Black banks just don't make money.
• She shows that the period between 1910 and 1930, when most of Black banks were created in totally segregated spaces, was the best time for this community empowerment model to work, but it didn't. Which begs the question: if Black group economics haven't worked during segregation where they were mandatory by necessity, why would they work now? 5 Black children out of 10 were in deep poverty when the Chicago riots occurred... Only 9% of white children.
• The reality of wealth building in America is that it was always accompanied with federal government subsidies and this type of state support. Not just the free market. Homestead Act, New Deal...
• The rhetoric that you use is not new: from Andrew Jackson vetoing reparations and justifying it by saying that Black people would engage in the free market and buy land themselves (and giving Black folks the Freed Men Saving Bank to teach Black folks about capitalism and how to exploit it... ended up being a disaster), through Nixon who said enough with the civil rights, let's talk Black capitalism, to the OG neoliberals who accompanied him and promoted the free market as a reaction to civil rights and talks about reparations, to Reagan, Clinton and his empowerment zones... The method hasn't shown historical success. Why would it work now?

I really recommend you the book if you're genuinely interested by the topic and want to challenge your own view.

2. This doesn't address the challenge. Even if it was true, so what? Black capitalism: x Black company offers y service in the community. There's more money to be made in such white community. x Black company moves to such white community for profit. That's capitalism working perfectly fine and defeating the purpose of a supposedly Black capitalism. You can switch the scenario with "there's more money to be made by selling z service to the community, with z being a harmful service".

3. Everybody can't start a business because not everybody has the talents or the desire necessary to the creation and maintenance of a successful business. But that's not the problem here: I'm talking about Black group economics as a whole concept. Capitalism leads to winners and losers and the wealth accumulate on the top. Why would Black capitalism be any different?

1. I'm sorry but that is pure conjecture on a "see it doesn't work" angle that has no basis. I already posted in the OP (which it seems like no one reads) that in order for you to get subsidies from the government you will need a strong Economic base before the Government singles Black people out for tangibles. The Government operates like a business, looks at balance sheets, and profits/loss statements and is not "morally just" like they want to portray. If they don't see a Financial Return on the subsidies, then they will never help the Black Community. If we don't create a Financial infrastructure (Banking, Manufacturing, Real Estate, Agriculture, Skilled trade Service, etc) then we will never take advantage of Government benefits. Any way you spin it, Black Group Economics has to happen. Government should be used as a tool, a symbiotic relationship. Not as a paternal God that will do everything for us

2. You keep missing the point of what Black Capitalism is. That is disingenuous to categorize "Black owned business" in that way. Black owned or not, no business will survive if they try to choose their customers before their business is up and running. It's the other way around, customers choose you. What are you going to do, open a Grocery store and turn away non-Black people who want to shop there? You build up your clientele first until you get predictable revenue then you can corner your market to fit your desires. Build a business first, then specialize in the race you want. And that erases the "more money to be made" theory you brought up. A business will serve everyone, poor or rich, black or non-black, but have a Black owner

3. "Everybody can't start a business" is another disingenuous statement. Obviously everyone can't, Did I ever say that? I said if you want to start a business, there is no barrier for you to start and no barrier for you to prosper. The key here is if you are not the one who owns a business, you can invest in a Black business. By either buying black or starting an investment fund that invests in Black businesses. Anyone can start a Private Equity Fund, Hedge Fund, Real Estate Fund, or Venture Capital Fund. All you need is 5+ people on board to pool their money to invest
Here you go, start one LLC Filing & Business Formation - Start Your Company Today

"Capitalism leads to winners and losers". That's life in general. If you want to never lose or fail, then go watch a Disney movie where the Little Mermaid finally gets her Prince

 

[Ahadi]

This is facts.

 

[Problematic Pat]

How are black people gonna persuade other black people to buy black, fight back and not get pushed out of their communities due to Gentrification? Alot of my friends and coworkers are being forced out of town because rent prices are being raised and they building these new sea foam colored condos for these Karens and Connors coming from everywhere else. I saw a group of brothers downtown protesting last weekend but nobody was trying to hear them. The culture around here is starting to shift and I don't like it

If you can't afford where you live you either up your skills so you can afford it or move. Low wage individuals will NEVER be allowed to hold on to prime real estate. That's liberal/Marxist dumb ass fantasy talking points.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

1. I'm sorry but that is pure conjecture on a "see it doesn't work" angle that has no basis. I already posted in the OP (which it seems like no one reads) that in order for you to get subsidies from the government you will need a strong Economic base before the Government singles Black people out for tangibles. The Government operates like a business, looks at balance sheets, and profits/loss statements and is not "morally just" like they want to portray. If they don't see a Financial Return on the subsidies, then they will never help the Black Community. If we don't create a Financial infrastructure (Banking, Manufacturing, Real Estate, Agriculture, Skilled trade Service, etc) then we will never take advantage of Government benefits. Any way you spin it, Black Group Economics has to happen. Government should be used as a tool, a symbiotic relationship. Not as a paternal God that will do everything for us

2. You keep missing the point of what Black Capitalism is. That is disingenuous to categorize "Black owned business" in that way. Black owned or not, no business will survive if they try to choose their customers before their business is up and running. It's the other way around, customers choose you. What are you going to do, open a Grocery store and turn away non-Black people who want to shop there? You build up your clientele first until you get predictable revenue then you can corner your market to fit your desires. Build a business first, then specialize in the race you want. And that erases the "more money to be made" theory you brought up. A business will serve everyone, poor or rich, black or non-black, but have a Black owner

3. "Everybody can't start a business" is another disingenuous statement. Obviously everyone can't, Did I ever say that? I said if you want to start a business, there is no barrier for you to start and no barrier for you to prosper. The key here is if you are not the one who owns a business, you can invest in a Black business. By either buying black or starting an investment fund that invests in Black businesses. Anyone can start a Private Equity Fund, Hedge Fund, Real Estate Fund, or Venture Capital Fund. All you need is 5+ people on board to pool their money to invest
Here you go, start one LLC Filing & Business Formation - Start Your Company Today

"Capitalism leads to winners and losers". That's life in general. If you want to never lose or fail, then go watch a Disney movie where the Little Mermaid finally gets her Prince

1. Read the book breh. You can't dismiss historical and current analyses of Black banks' financial situation as pure conjecture without basis. This is the harsh reality.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/whats-stopping-black-owned-banks-from-thriving.html

Black-Owned Banks Struggle To Stay Out Of The Red

This is the catch-22: you say that you need capital to receive federal subsidies (I'm not saying I agree with you on that regard), but reality shows that... You need state support to create that capital.

2. Exactly the point. That's one of the problem folks see with Black capitalism.

But let's go even further: you said earlier that every activity is entertained to generate profit. If that's the case, how do you intend to teach and educate Black folks about capitalism? Shouldn't it be impossible without generating profit? "You can't turn away non-Black people who want to shop in your grocery store", so surely you can't turn them for your lessons on capitalism neither?

3. You don't present any retort to the fact that Black capitalism won't lead to any closing of the racial wealth gap, so what's the point? "Black group economics is the only way" for what, if the large majority of Black people being the losers of the capitalist game is just a fact of life?

 

[UpAndComing]

1. Read the book breh. You can't dismiss historical and current analyses of Black banks' financial situation as pure conjecture without basis. This is the harsh reality.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/whats-stopping-black-owned-banks-from-thriving.html

Black-Owned Banks Struggle To Stay Out Of The Red

This is the catch-22: you say that you need capital to receive federal subsidies (I'm not saying I agree with you on that regard), but reality shows that... You need state support to create that capital.

2. Exactly the point. That's one of the problem folks see with Black capitalism.

But let's go even further: you said earlier that every activity is entertained to generate profit. If that's the case, how do you intend to teach and educate Black folks about capitalism? Shouldn't it be impossible without generating profit? "You can't turn away non-Black people who want to shop in your grocery store", so surely you can't turn them for your lessons on capitalism neither?

3. You don't present any retort to the fact that Black capitalism won't lead to any closing of the racial wealth gap, so what's the point? "Black group economics is the only way" for what, if the large majority of Black people being the losers of the capitalist game is just a fact of life?

You're not even responding or attempting to expound to what I'm saying. You're just trying to shoehorn your ideas so it can be an endless back and forth. Horrible debating tactic breh

 

[Peruvian Connect]

Too many Black people think in defense instead of offense. No backbone when it comes to competing Economically

You know what limits Corporation's power? Competition
The preference needs to be on strengthening the Small Businesses. That is the ONLY way the Corporations can't create a monopoly on production and supply. And Small Businesses are the main reason why communities and neighborhoods gain wealth. Job creation will skyrocket with more Small Businesses thriving
Put a Walmart in the middle of a neighborhood. See how poorer that community becomes. Because no money is circulating into the community. They are going instead to their offshore bank accounts with lower tax rates

If Black people don't want to economically compete in this Capitalistic system, that is their right. But just know you will be permanent 2nd Class citizens

Small businesses will just get eaten by the large corps with endless funds

 

[MischievousMonkey]

You're not even responding or attempting to expound to what I'm saying. You're just trying to shoehorn your ideas so it can be an endless back and forth. Horrible debating tactic breh

Ehr... On my hand, don't see responses to my questions but tangeants and narratives. I don't do tactics and I don't care for debates. I try to ignore the stuff that doesn't answer the question instead of focusing on it like, so that the convo is more productive and egos are preserved. For example, when highlighting that capitalism naturally leads to small groups of winner while everybody else fight for the scraps, pointing out that anyone can start a business is a nonsensical answer. If I were to pick apart every of these instances, nobody would get much out of the discussion.

There are meaningful conceptual, historical, statistical and pragmatical analyses challenging Black capitalism and group economics as a way to emancipation that even free market proponents acknowledge and answer to. Not in this thread. Have a good one.