Target Workers Unionize for Better Pay, Get Replaced By Robots

[CHL]

This sadly is the goal of many capitalists

I thought you were a "free" marketer?

 

[Domingo Halliburton]

I say let it all play out, give all the jobs to robots and none for the humans

couldn't you theoretically take the cost of any inputs down to about zero in such a scenario?

 

[tmonster]

couldn't you theoretically take the cost of any inputs down to about zero in such a scenario?

I have no idea but free labor sounds like perfect capitalism

 

[Ethnic Vagina Finder]

Self check out in stores are basically caused by lack of customers. You go into these big stores with 15 check out lanes and you be lucky if half of them are open. If people don't shop enough then no need for all of the employees. Unless you're a niche store like whole foods the big box store is ancient. These chains need to build smaller stores.

 

[Tate]

U dont agree with me at all For starters things are not as binary as you make them. I don't think communism OR capitalism or ANY "-ism" in isolation is a viable economic solution. Why? Because they are just ideas; they haven't been vetted or adjusted to actually work in reality.

What are these realities. For starters, the only people who are eager to abolish the concept of private property are the people who don't have it. What do you own that you would be willing to turn over to the state.... an Iphone 4S? Would communism take people's private property by force? What does anyone with private property stand to gain from agreeing to such an arrangement? You would have an instant civil war.

What else are these realities. Well for starters we can't just kick back and relax. Goods have to be produced, services have to be rendered. You still have yet to answer the fundamental question of why anyone would do anything besides lay around all day, when doing so would render the same or not much worse result for the individual than putting in a day of hard work. The quality of life you are afforded is only made possible by incentivizing the work needed to make it possible.

Look I am not some clueless "free marketeer". I think the ideal society/economic configuration is a lot more left than where the US is. We definitely have the means to provide healthcare and higher education to everybody, as well as revitalize our infrastructure and provide better job training and relocation resources through the govt. But abolishing private property & removing all incentive for innovation and work is a mistake.

Like I've said before you need to decide whether you want to exact revenge on capital holders or actually help the working class. Because you keep trying to confound the two when they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

We agree that capitalism is necessary to transition from feudalism.

People would work for the same reasons they work now. Socialism isn't just welfare. Unemployment doesn't exist in a system that isn't built upon exploiting workers. Point being that when everyone(save the obvious exceptions) is working, on an individual level you need to work much less. With mechanization and digitalization the workload becomes even lighter.

Innovation isn't born simply by profit. Much of the most complex code was written as a labor of love. Countless stories, games, and programs online are created with no profit in mind.

The key here is that the system is moving to a point where very few own much of anything. Increasingly capital is polarized. The only events that have brought actual wealth to the majority of the population were, in hindsight, the world wars. Absent the world wars capital has accumulated in fewer and fewer hands for 200 years. Theres a tipping point here.

Personnel property, the things you use in your day to day for yourself, is different from private property, the things that make up the economy. You can own the products, you can't own the means of production. There's certainly no ask about taking possession of privately owned factories or farms or power plants. And yes this likely will start a civil war. Capital won't play nice with democracy if change is brought about that way.

The wealthy only exist as a concept due to exploitation of the working class. The redistribution of wealth is the best way to help the working class in the immediate. Public ownership of the means of production is the best way to help them in the long term

 

[88m3]

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

We agree that capitalism is necessary to transition from feudalism.

People would work for the same reasons they work now. Socialism isn't just welfare. Unemployment doesn't exist in a system that isn't built upon exploiting workers. Point being that when everyone(save the obvious exceptions) is working, on an individual level you need to work much less. With mechanization and digitalization the workload becomes even lighter.

People work for private property (money). You have repeatedly called for the abolition of private property. So no, people would not work for the same reasons they do now. Nobody works for free. That's slavery.

And somebody else already spoke to the problems of automation eliminating work.

Innovation isn't born simply by profit. Much of the most complex code was written as a labor of love. Countless stories, games, and programs online are created with no profit in mind.

How does this innovation of love compare in quantity to the innovation driven by profit? Huge swaths of critical innovations (technology, pharmeceuticals) would either not have happened, or would have happened at a snail's pace without the motivation of profit. Profit is not a bad thing.

The key here is that the system is moving to a point where very few own much of anything. Increasingly capital is polarized. The only events that have brought actual wealth to the majority of the population were, in hindsight, the world wars. Absent the world wars capital has accumulated in fewer and fewer hands for 200 years. Theres a tipping point here.

So the only way to check that imbalance is to eliminate all private property?

Personnel property, the things you use in your day to day for yourself, is different from private property, the things that make up the economy. You can own the products, you can't own the means of production. There's certainly no ask about taking possession of privately owned factories or farms or power plants. And yes this likely will start a civil war. Capital won't play nice with democracy if change is brought about that way.

The wealthy only exist as a concept due to exploitation of the working class. The redistribution of wealth is the best way to help the working class in the immediate. Public ownership of the means of production is the best way to help them in the long term

"Personnel property" makes up the economy too. "You can't own the means of production" Says who?

That Whole Foods CEO was right on the money. It's pretty funny how you speak of worker exploitation and all that, and have decided that the remedy for it is a reciprocation of exploitation of another group. I can't even.... good luck dude.

 

[Tate]

People work for private property (money). You have repeatedly called for the abolition of private property. So no, people would not work for the same reasons they do now. Nobody works for free. That's slavery.

And somebody else already spoke to the problems of automation eliminating work.


How does this innovation of love compare in quantity to the innovation driven by profit? Huge swaths of critical innovations (technology, pharmeceuticals) would either not have happened, or would have happened at a snail's pace without the motivation of profit. Profit is not a bad thing.


So the only way to check that imbalance is to eliminate all private property?


"Personnel property" makes up the economy too. "You can't own the means of production" Says who?

That Whole Foods CEO was right on the money. It's pretty funny how you speak of worker exploitation and all that, and have decided that the remedy for it is a reciprocation of exploitation of another group. I can't even.... good luck dude.

People work for goods. Money is a means to an end. Who's talking about slavery? No one is coerced into work in a worker's state. However, there's no unemployment because employment is guaranteed.

Personnel property vs private property has been addressed countless times and I really tire of going over it.

The capitalist class makes up about 3-10% of the population of the U.S. About 1% of the world. The entire rest of the population is the working class. They aren't comparable groups quantitatively. That's a false equivalency. And even given that, they aren't exploited in this scenario at all. Taking back the stolen stereo isn't exploiting the thief. Repossessing the mob boss' house isn't exploiting his wife.

Most of the great innovations and technological advancements of the past century are due to government funded research, which can hardly be defined as profit based research. The soviets had little problem leading the world in biological research and other fields despite a lack of profit motive.

 

[Broke Wave]

I see so given the thread title and given information (simple reading the title), the only logical solution is to remove all unions and keep wages below what it would cost to hire a robot.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

People work for goods. Money is a means to an end. Who's talking about slavery? No one is coerced into work in a worker's state. However, there's no unemployment because employment is guaranteed.

Personnel property vs private property has been addressed countless times and I really tire of going over it.

The capitalist class makes up about 3-10% of the population of the U.S. About 1% of the world. The entire rest of the population is the working class. They aren't comparable groups quantitatively. That's a false equivalency. And even given that, they aren't exploited in this scenario at all. Taking back the stolen stereo isn't exploiting the thief. Repossessing the mob boss' house isn't exploiting his wife.

Most of the great innovations and technological advancements of the past century are due to government funded research, which can hardly be defined as profit based research. The soviets had little problem leading the world in biological research and other fields despite a lack of profit motive.

Personal vs private property undermines your whole shyt. You act like the only people with private property are oligarchs. If a worker works, saves up and starts a business that hires other workers, who exactly did he "steal" from? Most businesses (numerically) are small businesses.

And even with big business... again, say that worker takes his savings and buys ownership in a corporation (as millions of workers do through their retirement accounts). Where exactly is the "theft"?

If the problem is big companies yielding too much power (which I agree is a huge problem), how is it that the abolition of private property is better than, for example, abolishing corporate lobbying, or abolishing public/private quid pro quo revolving door employment, or banning insider trading for govt representatives, etc. You are using the big but fixable and comparatively limited problem of cronyism as a proxy to push your economic ideology, while also taking a fatalist and highly biased viewpoint that exaggerates the problems of capitalism and completely ignores the problems of communism. shyt is dishonest as fukk bro

 

[tmonster]

I see so given the thread title and given information (simple reading the title), the only logical solution is to remove all unions and keep wages below what it would cost to hire a robot.

well.... when you say it like that, it makes these guys sound like a bag of dikks
can you mince your words and use a bit more casuistry?

 

[Broke Wave]

well.... when you say it like that, it makes these guys sound like a bag of dikks
can you mince your words and use a bit more casuistry?

Well its simple breh. We need to reduce wages or keep them stagnant at the lowest level becayse frankly, those jobs require so little skill that they will be replaced by robots in the near future. So in order to keep those jobs, the workers must do whatever is in their power to not upset the corp they work for.

We also need to focus on job training and education, as this will put the low wage workers in high wage jobs. I still havent gotten around to what we should do when there is downward pressure on high skilled jobs. Maybe even more training and education??

 

[NZA]

jobs are not kept around for charity. if they can get rid of you, they most likely will, so unionizing has nothing to do with this so called plan for robots. the fact that workers want to be paid is the problem

the end goal of capitalism is slow motion suicide. keep whittling away at labor and there will be a cap on consumption which will put more companies out of business and crush investors. it's like how oil companies understand climate change very well but simply cant stop themselves. they're literally playing chicken with earth, including their own lives

and to the blind faith in the economy's ability to replace jobs with something better, the bar keeps being raised. there simply is nothing left for the masses. the end goal of mindless capitalism is antithetical to putting any money into the hands of labor if it doesnt have to. to that end, technology is being used to make almost non-existant payrolls a reality unlike ever before.

i suspect things are going to get a lot worse before we usher in a new era, brehs...

 

[tmonster]

Well its simple breh. We need to reduce wages or keep them stagnant at the lowest level becayse frankly, those jobs require so little skill that they will be replaced by robots in the near future. So in order to keep those jobs, the workers must do whatever is in their power to not upset the corp they work for.

We also need to focus on job training and education, as this will put the low wage workers in high wage jobs. I still havent gotten around to what we should do when there is downward pressure on high skilled jobs. Maybe even more training and education??

that's some excellent talking point salad breh, that sounds a lot nicer, I feel better already

 

[88m3]

to the people pushing the end private property narrative what skin in the game do you have?