The absence of Funk's influence is a big reason for the disconnect between old and new Hip Hop.

[the cac mamba]

 

[tuckgod]

Facts are useless without context.

Dude used De La as an example when anyone with a passing knowledge of hip-hop would tell you they were the outlier.

Dude used RUN DMC as an example when they didn't even want to do the song he posted. Didn't even want to perform that song after it was recorded.

So....yeah. This conversation is like asking what 2+2 is and someone replies with "the capitol of California is Sacramento". It's like....ok, cool.

Fred.

Exactly.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Facts are useless without context.

Dude used De La as an example when anyone with a passing knowledge of hip-hop would tell you they were the outlier.

Dude used RUN DMC as an example when they didn't even want to do the song he posted. Didn't even want to perform that song after it was recorded.

So....yeah. This conversation is like asking what 2+2 is and someone replies with "the capitol of California is Sacramento". It's like....ok, cool.

Fred.

dude, de la soul and run dmc were not outliers in their sourcing of white material, whether funky or unfunky. Plus, RUN DMC was already sourcing white material/sounds prior to Walk This Way

 

[tuckgod]

dude, de la soul and run dmc were not outliers in their sourcing of white material, whether funky or unfunky. Plus, RUN DMC was already sourcing white material/sounds prior to Walk This Way

So who else besides De La was sampling folk music in the 80s?

And Rick Rubin and Russell was trying to push the rock shyt on Run and D so their shyt would play in the downtown clubs alongside the punk records.

That wasn’t a musical choice of theirs and something they tried to get away from which is why they almost refused to make Walk This Way in the first place.

You keep bringing up outlier shyt for arguments sake when nobody is here to argue with you.

And you ain’t getting no daps besides that cheerleader ISO.

You’re wasting your time.

 

[hex]

dude, de la soul and run dmc were not outliers in their sourcing of white material, whether funky or unfunky. Plus, RUN DMC was already sourcing white material/sounds prior to Walk This Way

De La was an outlier in general. They were seen as weirdos....so what are you talking about?

And you used "Walk This Way" as an example. Which, despite them "sourcing white material", they had no interest in doing. The sole reason they followed through with it was they believed in Rick Rubin. Even after recording the song, they didn't want to perform it.

Secondly....I need to clear something up. Specifically about RUN DMC and "sourcing white material" because they're the earliest example of this. They rapped over "rock sounding" beats but they didn't give a fukk about rock music. Which is a major difference between then, and modern hip-hop. They wasn't running around dikk riding white rockers like Lil Uzi Vert. Back then other genres were sampled to enhance hip-hop....now hip-hop is used as window dressing for other genres. "Walk This Way" actually opened the doors for this kind of shyt, ironically. And RUN DMC obviously knew it, which is why they felt so uncomfortable doing it. Until the money started rolling in, anyway.

This is what I'm talking about man. You come in these threads with a gang of links and videos and interviews and it has no context to what the conversation is even about. What do you, personally, remember about hip-hop back then? Not what you can Google.

Fred.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Sampling is more broad now and sometimes artists might even sample a fukking bassline from a Soul record and build an entire trap beat over it and you don't know that there's even a sample in it...

and this is exactly why I said the funk didn't go anywhere....you're just getting it a new way that isn't 100% indebted to pure samples. The OP is really talking about sounds that can easily be traced back to their original records rather than the essence of Funk itself.

OP is looking for this for Funk in HipHOp (it actually still exists)



when something like this also is based on the essence of Funk w/o actually sounding like anything that one could directly trace to funk/soul samples + the use of drum machines where the end product is heavily based in the sound of the drum machines, just like current southern based trap

Though rap had been selling records and denting the lower reaches of the Billboard charts since 1979, it can be argued that Run-D.M.C.'s self-titled debut -- which peaked at No. 53 on the Billboard 200 on June 23 -- was the first time that real hip-hop was pressed to vinyl.

Most rap hits until then ("Rapper's Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang, "The Breaks" by Kurtis Blow) were R&B party records with rhymes flowing over them. Def Jam Records co-founder Russell Simmons, who managed Blow and Run-D.M.C., had been frustrated that the former's records "had too much music" and "weren't B-boy enough." So, he and co-producer Larry Smith created a stripped-down aesthetic for Run-D.M.C. using a Roland TR-808 drum machine that emulated the way rappers spit rhymes over break beats in New York parks.

Joseph "Run" Simmons (Russell's kid brother) and Darryl "D.M.C." McDaniels, both 19, were not as technically gifted or as lyrically complex as MCs who came before and after, but they had the hard-rhyming style that perfectly complemented the minimalistic production. Backed by 19-year-old DJ Jason "Jam Master Jay" Mizell (who was murdered in 2002), Run hurled rhymes with a zealot's fury, while D.M.C.'s hardy baritone invested every couplet with power.

The impact of their first single, "Sucker M.C.'s" (with a B-side of "It's Like That"), far exceeded its No. 15 peak on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart on Feb. 18. The stark swagger of those songs and the searing heavy-metal guitar licks on the exhilarating "Rock Box" hit like a one-two combination thrown by Mike Tyson, heralding the 808 as the foundation of hip-hop's future and Run-D.M.C. as the genre's new kings.

How Run-D.M.C. Changed the Rap Game in 1984

RUN DMC gave you the essence of funk w/o sounding like a disco bassline or a funky breakbeat

another example of the essence of funk w/o actually sounding like any funk record samples




funk is more than just breakbeats. There are people on this board that will try to argue that this isn't funk (they must have never listened to 80s funk music) mainly because they lack full scale knowledge of afram music





those same people will tell you this isn't R&B when it's clear as day it's blues-gospel based soul music

 

[hex]

smh

Fred.

 

[smokeurobinson]

Flex was right.

It is hard to compare a NYC deejay-oriented culture in the 70s (in which "emcees" were a secondary factor),
to the commercial, rapper-focused music industry that developed in the 90s.

It's apples and oranges.

This is exactly why dudes in her defending the 90's now while talking down on this current era are looking exactly like how C Deloris Tucker and Calvin Butts did in the 90's. Its a cycle......They doing the same thing that Tucker and Butts did in the 90's.

90's = We shall not allow our women to be refered to as bytches by our children

2010's = The absence of Funk's influence is a big reason for the disconnect between old and new Hip Hop

the cycle is just repeating itself.

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

It developed in the 80's. Hell, it actually developed in the 70's.

Cats are taking a definition of hip-hop that lived and died in a single decade 40+ years ago....and not even the full decade, as by the late 70's MCs were obviously a staple of hip-hop....and trying to say the modern day changes in hip-hop are comparable to it. Which makes sense if you ignore the intervening 40 years between the two things. One existed briefly in the nascent stages of hip-hop....the other has defined hip-hop for 4 decades.

Not to mention modern rappers aren't adding anything as revolutionary as MCing to hip-hop, so it's a moot point.

Fred.

I think you're shrinking the timeline for the multi-elements period of Hip Hop (at least in NYC and the Northeast).

The popularity of the deejay, who was the center of NYC b boy party culture, traveled well in the 80s and beyond. Flash and Theodore's mixtape domination of the 70s/80s translated later to Clue, Ron G, S&S and others in the 90s.

Flash, Davy DMX, Mantronix, D.J Cheese were making scratch-and-cut hit records in the 80s. Supreme Team collaborates with Malcolm McLaren on "Buffalo Gals."

Those international DMC World deejay battles are still going on.

Graffiti, an element of the culture, skyrockets to art galleries with Basquiat, Phase 2, Lee, and Keith Haring. Those works are worth millions today.

Breaking was just as popular as deejaying and emceeing going towards the mid 80s, and to this day has probably translated as an international art form more than any of the other elements.

The portable turntable/sound system culture of the rec centers and parks didn't give way in NYC to clubs until the late 80s.

That famous clip of a teenage Biggie freestyling outside on Fulton Avenue in '88 with a sound system is a great example.

"Rapping" became the easiest part of the culture for corporate America to monetize.

But that doesn't minimize the value of all the various elements that made what kids were creating in Bronx River, Morningside Park and Roy Wilkins Park so compelling.

Harry Belafonte tried his Hollywood best to pay tribute to all of the elements in "Beat Street" circa 1984.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

De La was an outlier in general. They were seen as weirdos....so what are you talking about?

their outside image made them weirdos

And you used "Walk This Way" as an example. Which, despite them "sourcing white material", they had no interest in doing. The sole reason they followed through with it was they believed in Rick Rubin. Even after recording the song, they didn't want to perform it.

not because they hated rock music but because the original record had hillbilly vocals according to them

Secondly....I need to clear something up. Specifically about RUN DMC and "sourcing white material" because they're the earliest example of this. They rapped over "rock sounding" beats but they didn't give a fukk about rock music. Which is a major difference between then, and modern hip-hop.

CrypticRock.com – Right, exactly. Now you had mentioned about mixing in the Rock -n- Roll and it just happened that way. It is almost like “Rock Box,” “King of Rock,” and obviously “Walk This Way,” all these big hits that you had, really were pioneers creating a mix between Rap and Rock. Was the Rock edge something that kind of always attracted you? Were you always interested in kind of dabbling in Rock?

Darryl “DMC” McDaniels – Yeah, and for me, as a little kid, when everybody, in the ’60s and ’70s, was into the Jackson Five, when everybody was into Sly and Family Stone, James Brown, Parliament-Funkadelic, and all of that. The high heels, bell bottoms, afro picks, afros, and dashikis, I cared nothing about none of that. In the ’60s and ’70s, in NYC, there was a radio station, 77WABC, they used to play everything. They used to play Elton John, The Doobie Brothers, Harry Chapin, Sly and the Family Stone, James Brown, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and all those stations, there was just something about the sound of the guitars. There was just something about the sound of Crosby, Stills, Young & Nash. There was something about the sound of The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zeppelin, Neil Young, Jim Croce, and even Harry Chapin. Growing up, and I never knew what the record was about till I got older, you know, Harry Chapin, sad ass “Cats in the Cradle,” I never knew it would have a profound effect on my life later.

There was just something that was alive with the Rock and the Folk Rock because, you know, Marvin Gaye was just so the lover, sexy man, but he did a record called “What’s Going On” about the conditions. For me, I was a school kid, so you know, Fogerty and Dillon, and so it was the Vietnam War they addressed the issues. Neil Young sung about university, it was something that was more day to day about Rock and Folk Rock. You know what I’m saying? Even from “Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head” and all of those songs from the ’60s and ’70s, there was just something about the sound of the guitar with the beat.

CrypticRock.com – That is really cool that much really connected with you the way it did.

Darryl “DMC” McDaniels – So let’s fast forward, Hip Hop comes over the bridge. You know, we needed stuff to rap over so we used a lot of Disco records such as “Rappers Delight” and “Good Times.” Disco records had a lot of baseline for you to rap over. We always used in Hip Hop a lot of James Brown cause James Brown always gave you a funky drum beat where the drums would break down and the MC could run his mouth. But in the same crates are the DJs, in the early days before recorded Hip Hop were break beats that were Rock records. “Walk this Way,” me and Run never heard the singing part to “Walk this Way,” all we knew was get Toys in The Attic out and play number four, you know what I’m saying? For me, I think there was something and on top of that, I was into Comic Books so there was just something stronger and more powerful, more Hulk like with Rock drums and guitars. You know, it was like lasers and the drums was like the Hulk and Thor slamming his hammer down.

There was just something thicker, heavier, and stronger with Rock music than with Disco, R&B, Jazz, and other records like that. That being said, cause people think “Walk this Way,” which is a record that Stephen Tyler did in the video, he knocked the wall down. People say, “D, that really happened in life, that wasn’t just a video thing.” Although, “Walk this Way” wasn’t the first Rock Rap record. The first Rock Rap record was “Rock Box.” It was also the first Rap video on MTV. Then we did a record called “King of Rock,” then we did “Walk this Way,” but when we did “Rock Box,” all I was trying to do was make a song like Billy Squier’s “The Big Beat.”

Larry Smith pulled out the DMX drum machine and said D you do it. He put the timer on with the click thing. He said you hit the bass button, you hit the kick, and you hit the snare. The big beat went bump bum bah bump bump bah, he said stop, and the beat kept going and then all he had to do was put the bass line on it. Then he put the bells on it. Originally, the guitars was supposed to come in and out, but Larry Smith left the guitars through the whole record. That’s how “Rock Box” was born. “Rock Box” was just me trying to make Bill Squier’s “The Big Beat,” a record that, as a kid, I was influenced by because the Rock that was on the radio at the time.

Interview – Darryl "DMC" McDaniels of Run-DMC

They wasn't running around dikk riding white rockers like Lil Uzi Vert. Back then other genres were sampled to enhance hip-hop....now hip-hop is used as window dressing for other genres. "Walk This Way" actually opened the doors for this kind of shyt, ironically. And RUN DMC obviously knew it, which is why they felt so uncomfortable doing it. Until the money started rolling in, anyway.

that's why the early rapper looked like rockers

This is what I'm talking about man. You come in these threads with a gang of links and videos and interviews and it has no context to what the conversation is even about. What do you, personally, remember about hip-hop back then? Not what you can Google.

Fred.

stop it before you dig yourself a deeper hole

 

[Taadow]

Can we say that sampling anything was the main move?

Yeah, we said that on page one. Lol

 

[IllmaticDelta]

So who else besides De La was sampling folk music in the 80s?

folk music isn't only white source of music

And Rick Rubin and Russell was trying to push the rock shyt on Run and D so their shyt would play in the downtown clubs alongside the punk records.



That wasn’t a musical choice of there’s and something they tried to get away from which is why they almost refused to make Walk This Way in the first place.

they liked rock...see my last post straight from dmc's mouth

You keep bringing up outlier shyt for arguments sake when nobody is here to argue with you.

Im responding to a point someone else made

And you ain’t getting no daps besides that cheerleader ISO.

You’re wasting your time.

 

[hex]

I think you're shrinking the timeline for the multi-elements period of Hip Hop (at least in NYC and the Northeast).

The popularity of the deejay, who was the center of NYC b boy party culture, traveled well in the 80s and beyond. Flash and Theodore's mixtape domination of the 70s/80s translated later to Clue, Ron G, S&S and others in the 90s.

Flash, Davy DMX, Mantronix, D.J Cheese were making scratch-and-cut hit records in the 80s. Supreme Team collaborates with Malcolm McLaren on "Buffalo Gals."

Those international DMC World deejay battles are still going on.

Graffiti, an element of the culture, skyrockets to art galleries with Basquiat, Phase 2, Lee, and Keith Haring. Those works are worth millions today.

Breaking was just as popular as deejaying and emceeing going towards the mid 80s, and to this day has probably translated as an international art form more than any of the other elements.

The portable turntable/sound system culture of the rec centers and parks didn't give way in NYC to clubs until the late 80s.

That famous clip of a teenage Biggie freestyling outside on Fulton Avenue in '88 with a sound system is a great example.

"Rapping" became the easiest part of the culture for corporate America to monetize.

But that doesn't minimize the value of all the various elements that made what kids were creating in Bronx River, Morningside Park and Roy Wilkins Park so compelling.

Harry Belafonte tried his Hollywood best to pay tribute to all of the elements in "Beat Street" circa 1984.

No offense but this doesn't have much to do with the original topic. The longer the thread goes on, the farther it goes off course.

The original quote from Flex said something along the lines of, the addition of MCs to hip-hop was a b*stardization. Or was seen as a bad thing by the pioneers of 70's hip-hop.

Ok cool....it doesn't change the fact that hip-hop as we currently know it, existed as early as the late 70's. And in the 40 years since then, it as defined hip-hop as much as any other aspect of it.

That's it. The Flex quote was pulled out in a feeble attempt to say "see?! even back then old heads wasn't comfortable with change!"....which is silly as fukk considering that change became the norm. And has been the norm for 4 decades. It's far too early to say if anything introduced in 2018 (or any year around it) will have the longevity the addition of MCing had. And it's an incredible stretch to say anything added recently, is as groundbreaking as MCing was back then. Anything these supposedly "new" acts do incorporates MCing....even if it's poorly. They aren't reinventing the wheel.

Fred.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I speak in generalities because it matches the general public.

Record sales, streams, radio spins, youtube view, whatever stat you wanna use it supports what I say.

I could argue the drum patterns today are connected to jazz in regards to timing. even the swing in vocal performances could be link to older influences.

But of course it doesn't go with your agenda so you will call me a cac to deflect. Oops you already did.

great point

 

[Blackout]

Yeah, we said that on page one. Lol

Don’t ignore the rest of the post.

You say that yet the main thing actually being done in that era was sampling black sources. Mostly alternate rappers sampled non black stuff like De La Soul and Beatnuts. Mainstream wasn’t letting that get too far.