The Bible is not Christianity.

Triipe

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Note the lack of denial, folks. :sas2:

Who are you even talking to? contribute to the premise of the thread or hit the road, you obviously have no desire to discuss this topic. So kindly stop posting and seeking to derail a thread. I just explained my issue, and said that the actions of the state =/= actions of the citizens. It is idiotic to perceive that as hateful.
 

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There aren’t historical records documenting Jesus’ trial don’t lie :mjlol:

The first references to Jesus show up some thirty years after the alleged crucifixion. You would think for someone of such stature there would be more documentation, especially since for other cult leaders of similar periods there’s substantial records of their existence, tax receipts all that.
I'm gonna try to just do this as an information-sharing exchange without all the vitriol.

The only historians in the Palestinian area in that time period were Josephus, the famous Jewish historian who was born about 7 years after Jesus died, and the writers of the Gospel accounts. All of them mention Jesus's crucifixion, and were almost certainly working off of sources contemporary with his death. The Babylonion Talmud refers to an event that appears to be the death of Jesus as well. There are also non-Jewish writers who mention it, like Tacitus and the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, which obviously derive from the later periods when Jesus's followers spread outside of Palestine. As there were no non-Jewish writers of significance documenting such religious events in Palestine in 30 A.D., there was no one there to document Jesus's work except various Jews. And they did.

What kind of stature do you think Jesus had in the Roman Empire in 30 A.D.? Nearly his entire ministry was in the rural areas, he only came to Jerusalem a few times. You think Roman historians who had never stepped foot in Jerusalem, much less the redneck villages outside Jerusalem, were covering events in rural Galilee? Pontius Pilate was stationed right there yet only appears vaguely aware of him until his final week, outside of Pontius Pilate who in Rome's employ would have cared? Pilate executed him but Pilate executed many thousands of Jews, he was famous for being an oppressive ass in that sense, one more dead Jew wouldn't make a stir. If Jesus had led an armed rebellion or something he might have gotten a mention, but you're going to have the list the name of the particular historians for whom you think this omission is a surprise before I'm gonna give you any weight.




People comfort themselves by ascribing order to chaos, not the other way around, hence your little bed time stories are what people find comfort in.
That's not generally true, step out into other cultures and it's just as easy to find belief systems that ascribe chaos to the universe as it is to find ones that ascribe order. Chaos and the idea that the world is less ordered and difficult to comprehend than what we believe we can see is an accepted principle of Hinduism and Buddhism, and I'm pretty sure its found in Chinese thought, as well in a lot of smaller tribal belief systems. If you want a psychological answer for that it's obvious - if you teach that the world is too chaotic to understand, then it is too chaotic to control or change, thus you should just accept things as they are and let the status quo continue.

You can also see pretty obvious self-serving reasons for ascribing chaos in recent Western thought, if you want to destroy the power of the priests and take it for yourself (see French Revolution for example), then it would be part of your repertoire.

People obviously find "comfort" in both directions, depending on what they're looking for.



The universe being “random” is the second law of thermodynamics, knucklehead. It’s not “faith” or a “belief” like your childish charade.
That's a vocabulary error, claiming that the increase in entropy in closed systems therefore proves that there is no plan or purpose for the universe is nonsensical. You're conflating two different meanings of the word. It's basically saying, "If God created the universe with any sort of purpose then the arrow of time would flow backwards", which doesn't work on any meaningful level.
 
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Professor Emeritus

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well, christians claim they do :yeshrug:

so do muslims, and they both cant be right, which just leaves me to question why i should believe either of you when you both can't be right :ehh:
It's historically documented that Islam was in part developed from mistaken understandings of Christianity (Mohammed speaks of having learned from Christian teachers before developing his ideas and there's obvious derivation from Christianity throughout his teachings, but when he attacks Christianity he gets basic concepts wrong like thinking the Trinity was Jesus, Mary, and God).

So if you care about the truth and historical fact, there's really no reasonable choice there - Christianity's claims should be judged independently of what someone 600 years later decided to do with it when he heard it told the wrong way.
 

Berniewood Hogan

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OP is an anti-semite, you have to take his opinions with a grain of salt. :manny:
 

Triipe

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:gucci:

The Bible is inspired by God breh. God is not just going to leave humanity without any roadmap.


The book of James is a personal favorite of mine, and I believe the new testament is divinely inspired. Speaking to those who would seek to dismiss the new testament accounts of Jesus's life based on select narrow scriptures from old testament books.
 
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Mook

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nikkas is 30 talking about some dude 3k years ago who's biggest accomplishment was dying twice. :shaq2:
 

Mook

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gave you a dap because obviously that's what you want.

hope you take some time and read up on things rather that dismiss.

Don't think it's a game

You have no answer for the Quran or Islam. Which is the same shyt damn near to a T. If Christians actually followed the rules. :rudy:
 

Triipe

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You have no answer for the Quran or Islam. Which is the same shyt damn near to a T. If Christians actually followed the rules. :rudy:

Muhammad was taught by early Christian scholars traveling through arabia and spreading the word, (before he went on jihad or had his moment in the caves/mountains).

I'm not here to disprove things, just wanted to clarify something that may lead people to reject Christianity without fully understanding.
 

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I'm gonna try to just do this as an information-sharing exchange without all the vitriol.

The only historians in the Palestinian area in that time period were Josephus, the famous Jewish historian who was born about 7 years after Jesus died, and the writers of the Gospel accounts. All of them mention Jesus's crucifixion, and were almost certainly working off of sources contemporary with his death. The Babylonion Talmud refers to an event that appears to be the death of Jesus as well. There are also non-Jewish writers who mention it, like Tacitus and the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, which obviously derive from the later periods when Jesus's followers spread outside of Palestine. As there were no non-Jewish writers of significance documenting such religious events in Palestine in 30 A.D., there was no one there to document Jesus's work except various Jews. And they did.

What kind of stature do you think Jesus had in the Roman Empire in 30 A.D.? Nearly his entire ministry was in the rural areas, he only came to Jerusalem a few times. You think Roman historians who had never stepped foot in Jerusalem, much less the redneck villages outside Jerusalem, were covering events in rural Galilee? Pontius Pilate was stationed right there yet only appears vaguely aware of him until his final week, outside of Pontius Pilate who in Rome's employ would have cared? Pilate executed him but Pilate executed many thousands of Jews, he was famous for being an oppressive ass in that sense, one more dead Jew wouldn't make a stir. If Jesus had led an armed rebellion or something he might have gotten a mention, but you're going to have the list the name of the particular historians for whom you think this omission is a surprise before I'm gonna give you any weight.

You just destroyed GP BEAR whole argument

Jesus was pretty low key. When Romans went to arrest him they still didn’t know who he was

They couldn’t even pick him out a crowd.

And It wasn’t like he even wanted to be “known” in the first place .:manny:

The whole point is for people to believe in him and his teachings not prove he existed.
 

Secure Da Bag

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The Bible is Christianity. The dogma surrounding the Bible can be considered "not Christianity". The Nicene Council and other Councils can be considered "not Christianity".

Seeing as certain books of the Bible were removed and others found, we don't have the complete story of Christianity. But translating 2000 year old text from a dead language to multiple languages where the authors wrote about the events after they occurred is going to create an issue of accuracy.
 

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The Bible is Christianity. The dogma surrounding the Bible can be considered "not Christianity". The Nicene Council and other Councils can be considered "not Christianity".

Seeing as certain books of the Bible were removed and others found, we don't have the complete story of Christianity. But translating 2000 year old text from a dead language to multiple languages where the authors wrote about the events after they occurred is going to create an issue of accuracy.

I wouldn't say this is exactly accurate. The Bible is the centerpiece of Christianity, the most well-verified texts we have on the faith as it existed from the beginning. But that doesn't mean it "IS" Christianity, to believe that so was a recent invention.

The most obvious proof of that is that Christianity existed long before the Bible did. Jesus's teachings were spread through word of mouth and the ministry of his disciples long before anyone wrote any of it down, because it was an era before printing press and widespread literacy where important messages were spread by people. The letter of James and the first letters from Paul were likely written about 50 A.D., still well within the ministry of Jesus's direct disciples and many other people who knew them (thus providing for reality checks), but well after the faith had already spread. Around 60 A.D., probably about the time that most of the disciples were starting to die off or get hold and the realization came that it all needed to be set down definitively in writing for the next generations, the Gospel of Mark was written, and over the next 10-20 years the Gospels of Matthew and Luke followed. Again, these would all have been written still within the lifetimes of disciples and crosschecked by eyewitnesses (as Luke himself mentions in his text), otherwise they wouldn't have been found valid by the many living followers who knew what Jesus had really done or the thousands who had heard it directly from his disciples. By 90 A.D. or so, 60 years after Jesus, the letters of John had been written along with the book of Acts chronicling the early history of the Christian community. These were probably the last books written within a timeframe where direct validation by eyewitnesses of the original events was possible, though indirect evaluation by those who were taught by the eyewitnesses was also important.

What's the point of all that? You're talking about 60 years of history of the Church where the Church spread from Galilee and Jerusalem to Ethiopia, Syria, Greece, Turkey, Rome, Egypt, and beyond....and yet the Bible STILL had not even been written yet, much less put together! Christianity existed, Christians had even been getting persecuted for decades already, and they didn't even have a book called "the Bible" yet. So how can you claim that the Bible and Christianity are synonymous.

Through the 100s you had churches all across the Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Europe that were reading from the various letters and gospel accounts in their services. They didn't have everything compiled into a single book called "the Bible", but most of them had a pretty standard list of texts that they read in order to keep the train intact. Those texts always included the four Gospels, the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, and the first letters of Peter and of John. Outside of that there were some minor discrepancies - some churches had the letter of James and others didn't, some churches had the letter to the Hebrews and others didn't, some churches read the 2nd letter of Peter and others didn't, some churches had one of the letters of John and others had all three, some churches read Revelation of John and others did not, some church read a couple additional letters like the Letter of Barnabas or an early 100s prophecy called the Shepherd of Hamas.

It was somewhere around 150 that everyone began agreeing on exactly which books were the "most appropriate" rendition of the faith. This was about the time the last "disciples of the disciples" were dying out, like Bishop Polycarp, the famous disciple of the Apostle John who was martyred by the Roman Emperor at the age of 86 in A.D. 155. So you still have a fairly close connection to the original events, it's like now where you still have people around whose grandparents told them about fighting in World War 1, but you also are talking about 100+ years of history in-between where Christianity was able to develop based on shared teachings and discipleship and church documents like The Didache without having everything standardized into the Bible.

The center of Christianity is the life and death of Jesus Christ, his ministry and teachings and all that he did for us. Our absolute best record of that is in the Bible, and the Bible can be trusted as it was written at a time when the disciples of Jesus and their teachings were too powerful in the Church to be overcome by new and false teachings. People took word of mouth seriously back then, if 100 people witnessed an event and then each told 100 people about it, then you'd have 10,000 people who had heard about the even first-hand from a witness. And they're going to be talking. If you came in and wrote a book that contracted that, you'd be buried quick because there are 10,000 people who heard the real story first-hand from witnesses who are going to tell everyone that you're full of crap. So I believe the Bible is accurate, but I don't believe it is everything.

The ultra-focus on "the Bible is everything" didn't develop until after Islam, when Muslims were preaching "the Koran is everything" and some Christians began to adopt that mentality back in reverse from them. And then it really spread during the Protestant Reformation, which was in the age of the printing press when books became vital, and also had that Enlightenment "modern" worldview of legalism and pretending perfect knowledge even where it's impossible. It was easier for an Enlightenment-era thinker to point to "this is THE book" than to admit that they were dealing with the messier history of people and church, and so they overemphasized the book. But that's not how it was in the beginning.
 

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What's the point of all that? You're talking about 60 years of history of the Church where the Church spread from Galilee and Jerusalem to Ethiopia, Syria, Greece, Turkey, Rome, Egypt, and beyond....and yet the Bible STILL had not even been written yet, much less put together! Christianity existed, Christians had even been getting persecuted for decades already, and they didn't even have a book called "the Bible" yet. So how can you claim that the Bible and Christianity are synonymous.

If the Bible existed as spoken word and that spoken word was authoriative as you say, then the Bible existed. It being a book (or two books) is a technical detail but not one that takes away from the fact that the Bible is Christianity. But you're right, the Bible is certainly the core of Christianity.
 
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