The Illmatic Rule (OH SHYT it's SirBiatch!)

SirBiatch

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First off,salute OP for the well thought out video:salute:

But for all the reasons you named,thats why I can't support this. I highly believe OP chose to ignore just how important everything you said about impact is,just so he could name his criteria the "Illmatic Rule":martin:

You can't simply ignore impact in Real Time. Don't expect me to put an album like Reasonable Doubt or Illmatic in the same stratosphere with something like a Amerikkas Most or Death Certificate.Both classics?Yes?But who Jay and Nas became later greatly increased the legacy of those albums. In good conscience I can't hold them in the same regard as something that had an incredible impact in real time nationally/globally ,completely shifted the culture AND was considered a classic out of the gate.

I can easily ignore it. Why does 'real time' matter when we're talking about artistic works that can last hundreds if not thousands of years?

This is a classic piece of music.



Do we even know how it was received in 'real time'? Do we care? The fact is that it sounds fantastic in 2017. So much so that a shytty rapper named G-Eazy decided to sample it.

Genius is rarely recognized in real time. Most people are simply too stupid/distracted to see what's brilliant immediately. That's why the star power of certain artists rise after years (even when they're not as active), and others diminish (even though they were dominating charts). People catch on late and realize "oh, that was actually brilliant in hindsight" or bandwagon it because they associate that art with respect/excellence.

Amerikkas Most and Death Certificate are dated as fukk in 2017. Aint nobody listening to that shyt on the level of Reasonable Doubt and Illmatic. Even heads.

And the 'real time' argument works for Nas, too. In real time, hip hop heads (actual fans, not pop casuals) were fukking floored by Illmatic. There's a video with Tray Dee on Vlad reciting some Illmatic lyrics word for word just on the spur of the moment, so West Coast dudes (the ones that actually liked hip hop, not the pretenders) were obviously floored, too. I know people that quit rapping when Illmatic came out. Did Johnny Smith in White suburbia rush to buy Illmatic the same way he rushed to buy NWA and Doggystyle? No. But Johnny Smith doesn't listen to hip hop anymore and still thinks Black people are ******s.

I like this as criteria for a classic,but we still need classifications for classics,some should be held in higher esteem than others. Plus I don't know if as many people would call Illmatic the classic of all classics like you suggest. That would even be a blashemous suggestion in certain corners of the earth.

Those corners aren't cities close to New York, the creators and by far the greatest performers of this entire genre, so why would I give a fukk?

It would be more offensive than it would be welcomed,let me just put it that way. I only say this to you as you are a foreigner.

This is mostly irrelevant. It'd only be relevant if I wasn't Black, hadn't been to the US nor knew anything about Black American culture. But the reality is the opposite. I've spent time in the US - many parts. I have close Black American family and friends. So nah.
 

087532652350

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all that matters to me is the music. i don't really care about the narratives people make up about "impact." that's how you get posters here claiming Harlem World was a classic :stopitslime:
 

SirBiatch

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Eh. Shouldn't your criteria scale for double albums? I mean, you're saying an album with 30 tracks is classic even if 20 are trash and 10 are dope/replayable. That means two thirds of the album is bad yet you're not only calling it a good album, you're calling it classic? What sense does that make on any level?
:patrice:

It makes tons of sense. Think about it.

All Eyez on Me and Life After Death are routinely considered classics. I wouldn't argue with anyone who says All Eyez On Me is a classic. The shyt is 27 songs and there are barely 9 amazing songs on that shyt across both disks (that 2nd disk is a major step down). Life After Death is even worse overall.

Overall the replayability argument is interesting though. I'll add it to my list of criteria for a classic. But I see it moreso as a sliding scaling. Some albums might have more of one criteria than another, but the total end tally must reach a certain level for me to consider it classic.

-Quality of music (nearly perfect to perfect tracklist)

There has to be a differentiation between an album that is good or great, and an album that is classic. One of the biggest problems today is that a really good album comes out and people automatically want to hail it a classic. That shouldn't be how this works. If you're album has a few middling or downright bad tracks, it's probably not classic.

Probably.

Actually, there are no really good albums today. The biggest problem today is that someone will drop an album that has no standouts whatsoever but isn't obviously shyt, and people will say it's gotta be classic because it's cohesive or fits whatever narrative the record company is trying to sell.

Classics aren't about what's bad. it's about what's great.

I wasn't a fan of 808s And Heartbreaks but it's influence on modern urban music is dominant. Likewise there are Three Six Mafia albums I might call meh or ok that had dominant influence over how rap music sounds today.

So is Souljaboytellem.com. Even more so than 808s and Heartbreaks. Who gives a fukk, especially when the outcome is trash? That 'influence' shyt is complete hyperbole and marketing.

If we're keeping it fukking real, Soulja Boy is easily the most influential rapper of the last 10 years. But nobody ever talks about Soulja Boy, which I find hilariously hypocritical. Instead magazines are struggling to give fake props to whoever's paying them. I'm not into forced narratives at all. It's about the replay value of the music - period.
 
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Hey out of curiosity @SirBiatch, using the "Illmatic rule" about how many hip hop albums would you call classic? Like just an estimate.

Without thinking about it much, I'd personally say around 50? Seems like a reasonable-ish number.

Also, I feel this rule gets tricky when we're factoring in '80s hip hop albums that aren't packed with amazing songs but have enough good influence to make up for it (e.g. Criminal Minded, Strictly Business)
 

InfamousThoro

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@SirBiatch I know you're a big Mobb fan, do you consider Murda Muzik (retail) a classic using the 9 track rule?

My picks would be:

What's Ya Poison
Allustrious
Where Ya from
Quiet Storm
Where Ya Heart At
Thug Muzik
Murda Muzik
The Realest
It's Mine
Quiet Storm (Remix)

9 tracks all bangers to me, what do you think?
 

SirBiatch

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Can you give me reasons as to why this is considered a 10/10 hip hop track? Idk I'm trying to hear & appreciate the track but the song sounds so slow and unenergized imo. SRS

To be honest, this is one of the first tracks on Illmatic I instantly loved and made me understand what Illmatic was about (and hip hop as a whole). The atmosphere of the song is crazy, breh. Beat is flames. It's the audio equivalent of chilling on a park bench in Queensbridge, bumping into a friend and him just talking some funny/laid back wild shyt. So much warm charisma in that shyt.

What up, nikkas, how y'all? It's Nasty, the villain
I'm still writing rhymes, but besides that I'm chillin'

I'm tryin' to get this money, God
You know the hard times, kid

shyt, cold, be starving make you wanna do crimes kid

:wow:

all that matters to me is the music. i don't really care about the narratives people make up about "impact." that's how you get posters here claiming Harlem World was a classic :stopitslime:

exactly.

Hey out of curiosity @SirBiatch, using the "Illmatic rule" about how many hip hop albums would you call classic? Like just an estimate.

Without thinking about it much, I'd personally say around 50? Seems like a reasonable-ish number.

nah breh. I'd say it's about 20

Also, I feel this rule gets tricky when we're factoring in '80s hip hop albums that aren't packed with amazing songs but have enough good influence to make up for it (e.g. Criminal Minded, Strictly Business)

Agreed.

To be fair, I think albums like Criminal Minded and Strictly Business still kinda hold up to the rule because every second of those albums has been dissected and sampled. The sheer amount of KRS vocal samples from Criminal Minded will make your head spin. And not just the main tracks. Even 'minor' tracks like Poetry have found their way to songs.

Then again, I think if we're being honesty, the 80s didn't make classic albums like that. OGs will tell you this themselves. They released pioneering albums that deserve all the respect, but it's not like you can listen to them shyts top to bottom. They weren't crafted as well as 90s albums for business and timing reasons. I made a thread about this years back saying there isn't a single 80s album I can play top to bottom, and weirdos (who probably have never even heard a single 80s album and don't listen to hip hop from that era at all) got furious. I wasn't trying to diss the 80s, I was just keeping it real.
 

SirBiatch

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@SirBiatch I know you're a big Mobb fan, do you consider Murda Muzik (retail) a classic using the 9 track rule?

My picks would be:

What's Ya Poison
Allustrious
Where Ya from
Quiet Storm
Where Ya Heart At
Thug Muzik
Murda Muzik
The Realest
It's Mine
Quiet Storm (Remix)

9 tracks all bangers to me, what do you think?

Nah. I just consider it a decent album. I've highlighted the true standouts. If I'm being generous, I'd include "Where Ya Heart At", "The Realest" and "It's Mine." So that's 3 to 6 standouts (and one is a remix). Murda Muzik is a decent to good album depending on taste, but it's clearly not a classic.
 

AlainLocke

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What makes any work of art a classic is critical acclaim and artistic impact and legacy...

Fan opinion doesn't matter and likability doesn't matter....
 

Xtz23

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I agreed till u said the 9 track rule shyt. 30 tracks/9 good tracks/20 filler? At the end of the day that could make it a personal classic to u breh. but if the percentage of the good records isn't upto par with the overall product it can't be a classic.
 

SirBiatch

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I agreed till u said the 9 track rule shyt. 30 tracks/9 good tracks/20 filler? At the end of the day that could make it a personal classic to u breh. but if the percentage of the good records isn't upto par with the overall product it can't be a classic.

Breh, I'm telling you: people already do this but they don't even realize it. I gave the examples earlier of All Eyez on Me and Life After Death. At least 60% of those albums are filler/not standout songs. But people still call it classic because there are multiple standouts.

You've seen this site call this shyt classic for way less. An album with 20 tracks has 2 standout songs to them (and those 2 songs could be mediocre, too) and it's classic :mjlol:

also, something tangential to note: The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two - Wikipedia

Most people can only remember up to 7 things in a list +/- 2. Which means 9 is the upper limit. Which is why you'll have dudes calling shyt like GRODT classic because they can remember 5-7 songs they love even though they're forgetting the disk has 15 other songs that may or may not be as great.
 

Xtz23

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Breh, I'm telling you: people already do this but they don't even realize it. I gave the examples earlier of All Eyez on Me and Life After Death. At least 60% of those albums are filler/not standout songs. But people still call it classic because there are multiple standouts.

You've seen this site call this shyt classic for way less. An album with 20 tracks has 2 standout songs to them (and those 2 songs could be mediocre, too) and it's classic :mjlol:
That's true with the double album. the 3 best double discs all got filler. Even if some songs were good at a point they didn't really hold up with time. That's y double discs with filler aren't going to be on the level of the single disc that's a masterpiece. With the double album usually if 80 percent is classic dope it'll usually be deemed a classic cuz it already has over a disc worth of classic material with no real bad tracks. with single discs I think that it's different to rate the album it actually has to be perfect or like a song or two off no wack songs tho. Shyt has to be perfect.
 
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