The Illmatic Rule (OH SHYT it's SirBiatch!)

[SirBiatch]

@mobbinfms why eggsactly are you in this thread breh? None of your posts have to do with the topic at hand. We talkin music and you just talking @SirBiatch. Please dismiss yourself if you have nothing to add to the topic. Thank you.

caccin is still here and still rambling about me? I bet he's quoting my posts/@ me despite the fact he's been on ignore for almost 2 years. How bored and deranged do you have to be to follow a nikka daily who hasn't interacted with you in 2 years?!

Anyway, let's not get off-topic. These shytposters always wanna shift convo because they have nothing hip hop to contribute.

I'm liking this Illmatic rule and it works on classics. Considering Illmatic is the shortest classic rap album ever, I think it's fair to apply to other albums while upholding a standard. Blueprint and Stillmatic fall short because they were never classic like that anyway. So does Lost Tapes.

 

[SirBiatch]

It Was Written falls short too.

Ironman's debatable. It's either close or classic. I don't mind either way. Same with Reasonable Doubt

 

[SirBiatch]

The 20 filler songs with 9 classic songs is an exaggeration (no one but Lil B will release something that sprawling that's actually kinda dope) but I think the point still stands.

After all, let's look at The Coli's vote on "Country Grammar"

Is Nelly - Country Grammar a Hip-Hop classic?

The Booth said it's a classic. Even though Country Grammar only has 14 tracks and 10 of them are straight up filler. The other 4 are undisputed classics (and everyone already knows which 4).

Now, let's say Country Grammar had twice the number of tracks in every regard. 28 total, 20 filler, and 8 undisputed classic. We'd be getting bombarded with daily threads about Nelly being classic.

The point is - by the time you've made 9 standout, endlessly-replayable songs on a single project, you've pretty much made a classic.

 

[ZEB WALTON]

Hey out of curiosity @SirBiatch, using the "Illmatic rule" about how many hip hop albums would you call classic? Like just an estimate.

Without thinking about it much, I'd personally say around 50? Seems like a reasonable-ish number.

Also, I feel this rule gets tricky when we're factoring in '80s hip hop albums that aren't packed with amazing songs but have enough good influence to make up for it (e.g. Criminal Minded, Strictly Business)

this is the point that to me this 9 track thing gets lost on. cuz i could prolly name 100 albums with 9 or so GREAT tracks

but in my head, theres classics and then there is personal classics. i can recognize albums liek crinminal minded, great adventures of slick rick, chronic, etc as classics even if i dont bump them much.

then again, with albums like illmatic being 9 tracks long... i have tical just as high if not higher cuz it has MORE and even if 4 songs are ehhh... it still has 9 bangers.. but even i will bow to the world view that illmatic is better than tical..

if it was the 9 track rule thing albums like say... tical 2000 would be classic.

shaolin what
torture
killin fields
party crasher
dangerous ground
judgement day
perfect world
retro godfather
sweet love
suspect chin

thats 10 bangers that i still check... never mind 6 other songs . yea i had to cut 12 skits/songs to get there.. so this album has 16 dope songs with 7-10 that i still play here and there. yet this album was dissed to fukk and back even tho it was solid all the way thru and people would talk wild shyt if i said i enjoyed tical 1 n 2 more than illmatic.

illmatic being so short really does much up the waters. fukkin noz

 

[TheRtist]

@mobbinfms why eggsactly are you in this thread breh? None of your posts have to do with the topic at hand. We talkin music and you just talking @SirBiatch. Please dismiss yourself if you have nothing to add to the topic. Thank you.

I blocked that lame long time, he just stalks and rambles. Mods need to put him in the bushes.

 

[SirBiatch]

this is the point that to me this 9 track thing gets lost on. cuz i could prolly name 100 albums with 9 or so GREAT tracks

I appreciate the response breh, so lemme address each of your points.

100 albums? Nah man. I'm not talking good songs. I'm talking standout, incredible songs. shyts that could've been singles because of how damn good they are.

Lemme use ASAP Rocky as an example. "Trilla" could've easily been a single. It's that great. "Get Lit"... nah.

but in my head, theres classics and then there is personal classics. i can recognize albums liek crinminal minded, great adventures of slick rick, chronic, etc as classics even if i dont bump them much.

I don't think there's a single 80s rap album that is on the level of the best 90s rap albums. And I'm not saying that to shyt on the 80s. It's more of a pioneer vs perfection thing. The 80s albums are groundbreaking but the 90s perfected/corrected the kinks.

Frankly, I don't think it's fair to judge albums prior to the 90s because hip hop didn't start making great, play all the wall through, long-lasting albums till the 90s.

then again, with albums like illmatic being 9 tracks long... i have tical just as high if not higher cuz it has MORE and even if 4 songs are ehhh... it still has 9 bangers.. but even i will bow to the world view that illmatic is better than tical..

cmon breh. Tical does not have 9 bangers. Let's look at the absolute best songs there: Immaculate production.

Bring The Pain
What The Blood Clot
Stimulation
I'll Be There for You

That's 4 songs.

Even if you throw in Mr Sandman and Release Yo Delf, it's still 6.

if it was the 9 track rule thing albums like say... tical 2000 would be classic.

shaolin what
torture
killin fields
party crasher
dangerous ground
judgement day
perfect world
retro godfather
sweet love
suspect chin

Again, cmon breh. Dangerous Grounds is the undisputed classic on here. Judgment Day is also good. That's 2 songs people play or reference anywhere. The rest are not 10/10 songs on any level. A lot of the songs you mentioned are just alright. "Sweet Love?" really? I'll give you Torture but even that is borderline

thats 10 bangers that i still check... never mind 6 other songs . yea i had to cut 12 skits/songs to get there.. so this album has 16 dope songs with 7-10 that i still play here and there. yet this album was dissed to fukk and back even tho it was solid all the way thru and people would talk wild shyt if i said i enjoyed tical 1 n 2 more than illmatic.

Because it's not that good, breh. Our tastes were much higher back then. And for the most part, we were accurate in evaluating albums.

illmatic being so short really does much up the waters. fukkin noz

As an OG once told me, Illmatic is so good that any one of those songs (every single of them) could've been singles. If someone else had "One Time 4 Your Mind" at that time, that person could've launched a rap career off the strength of that song alone. That's what I mean by standouts. Not just a decent album cut.

 

[Benefited]

I can easily ignore it. Why does 'real time' matter when we're talking about artistic works that can last hundreds if not thousands of years?

This is a classic piece of music.



Do we even know how it was received in 'real time'? Do we care? The fact is that it sounds fantastic in 2017. So much so that a shytty rapper named G-Eazy decided to sample it.

Genius is rarely recognized in real time. Most people are simply too stupid/distracted to see what's brilliant immediately. That's why the star power of certain artists rise after years (even when they're not as active), and others diminish (even though they were dominating charts). People catch on late and realize "oh, that was actually brilliant in hindsight" or bandwagon it because they associate that art with respect/excellence.

Amerikkas Most and Death Certificate are dated as fukk in 2017. Aint nobody listening to that shyt on the level of Reasonable Doubt and Illmatic. Even heads.

And the 'real time' argument works for Nas, too. In real time, hip hop heads (actual fans, not pop casuals) were fukking floored by Illmatic. There's a video with Tray Dee on Vlad reciting some Illmatic lyrics word for word just on the spur of the moment, so West Coast dudes (the ones that actually liked hip hop, not the pretenders) were obviously floored, too. I know people that quit rapping when Illmatic came out. Did Johnny Smith in White suburbia rush to buy Illmatic the same way he rushed to buy NWA and Doggystyle? No. But Johnny Smith doesn't listen to hip hop anymore and still thinks Black people are ******s.



Those corners aren't cities close to New York, the creators and by far the greatest performers of this entire genre, so why would I give a fukk?



This is mostly irrelevant. It'd only be relevant if I wasn't Black, hadn't been to the US nor knew anything about Black American culture. But the reality is the opposite. I've spent time in the US - many parts. I have close Black American family and friends. So nah.

Real time matters because history can be rewritten and skewed via media brainwashing and self promotion. You've even just admitted that people bandwagon,its easy to decide which is the case. Illmatic isn't just some slept on classic who had an organic rise to be recognized in the vein it is today,as I've even heard it called "hiphops bible". There was a media push in real time that fans rejected and chose other more impactful classics over it. And today there is a large segment outside of the east coast who would not agree with using that album as THE rubric whatsoever. Real classics are impactful and move the needle among every demographic. The attempts to only count the votes of so called hiphop heads says it all. AMW,Kill At WIll,Death Certificate moved the needle among all demographics,Nas moved the needle among his own congregation. That is not shifting the culture in real time,like real time classics did.

There were many classics that didn't get the 5 mics they deserved in The Source,thus weren't dikk liked by so called "real heads" nearly as much as Illmatic was. In that same vein Illmatic shouldn't be put in the same category with classics that were impactful and beloved in real time when they dropped. Also no offense but are you from the streets/urban area at all? Only judging from what people in this thread are implying.

If not why should we take your opinion seriously whatsoever?You can't possibly think your opinion is more valuable than black americans who are really from the streets,and among the culture that spawn this music we love?We have more of a right to say Illmatic is garbage than you would have the right to call it great.

and Death Certificate definitely aged better than Illmatic,all they talked about last year during the anniversary was how relevant the content still was. If you mean the sound,thats crazy because Illmatic definitlely doesn't fair much better in that regard when compared to other classics. I hope you aren't completely ignoring content and style when you think timelessness.

 

[MidnightMercenary]

It Was Written falls short too.

Ironman's debatable. It's either close or classic. I don't mind either way. Same with Reasonable Doubt

I think if we're talking about straight up 10/10 songs, then nah Ironman or Reasonable Doubt wouldn't hit that '9 track rule'

If we're making it 9/10 or above (I consider that 'amazing') then yeah they'd make it imo

For me a 10/10 song is a song that I'd get all hearing it come up when shuffling my library

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

I think if we're talking about straight up 10/10 songs, then nah Ironman or Reasonable Doubt wouldn't hit that '9 track rule'

If we're making it 9/10 or above (I consider that 'amazing') then yeah they'd make it imo

For me a 10/10 song is a song that I'd get all hearing it come up when shuffling my library

Ironman imo works with the Illmatic rule easily

Iron Maiden
260
Poisonous Darts
Winter Warz
Box in Hand
Fish
Daytona 500
Motherless Child
All That I Got is You

I coulda put Faster Blade etc.

But as I stated in my original post, I don't think this is the rule to go by to determine a classic. I wouldn't know how to define a standout song and it is far too subjective. I don't think every song has to have a 'single'-esque nature about it. Poisonous Darts is just raw spitting but it fulfils its function as a perfect short track and is probably my fav on the album. Wouldn't make a good single though. Still a standout.

 

[Chip Skylark]

Dope vid. I'm glad to you're back and doing things like this.. would be dope if you did album reviews

I agree with the replay value. I tried to listen to GKMC last week and ended up skipping more than half of the album.

Live love asap is a classic but so is kush and Oj

 

[ZEB WALTON]

I appreciate the response breh, so lemme address each of your points.

100 albums? Nah man. I'm not talking good songs. I'm talking standout, incredible songs. shyts that could've been singles because of how damn good they are.

Lemme use ASAP Rocky as an example. "Trilla" could've easily been a single. It's that great. "Get Lit"... nah.



I don't think there's a single 80s rap album that is on the level of the best 90s rap albums. And I'm not saying that to shyt on the 80s. It's more of a pioneer vs perfection thing. The 80s albums are groundbreaking but the 90s perfected/corrected the kinks.

Frankly, I don't think it's fair to judge albums prior to the 90s because hip hop didn't start making great, play all the wall through, long-lasting albums till the 90s.



cmon breh. Tical does not have 9 bangers. Let's look at the absolute best songs there: Immaculate production.

Bring The Pain
What The Blood Clot
Stimulation
I'll Be There for You

That's 4 songs.

Even if you throw in Mr Sandman and Release Yo Delf, it's still 6.



Again, cmon breh. Dangerous Grounds is the undisputed classic on here. Judgment Day is also good. That's 2 songs people play or reference anywhere. The rest are not 10/10 songs on any level. A lot of the songs you mentioned are just alright. "Sweet Love?" really? I'll give you Torture but even that is borderline



Because it's not that good, breh. Our tastes were much higher back then. And for the most part, we were accurate in evaluating albums.



As an OG once told me, Illmatic is so good that any one of those songs (every single of them) could've been singles. If someone else had "One Time 4 Your Mind" at that time, that person could've launched a rap career off the strength of that song alone. That's what I mean by standouts. Not just a decent album cut.

blasphemy on the tical, biscuits, subcrazy, meth vs chef, release yo delf overlook as the flows on those songs > one time 4 ya mind... to me... by a wiiiiiide margin. i know what yur saying with absolute classics that could be singles but diff type of albums yield diff songs. and i mean... that means you just limiting play to what was popular/known no? tical 2000 meth is like prime method man.. if those aint classic meth then nothing after is. id say 6 of the songs from that album i listed are 4.5-5/5. atleast.. unless classics is all ya playing and consider replayable. wouldnt skip a single song i listed on my late 90s wu mix. i mean you saying replayability right? if those 6 aint replayable at all then the album a 1/5 mics and obv thats not true. its 3.5 mics and critically was considered a 4 micer so i dont think its as bad as your saying but i get ya point. mind you method man is my/your nas so this is only an example.

think even immobilarity has 9 dope songs tho maybe 1-3 would be liked by non raekwon fans. i think this is what you mean and where it gets real. when songs have universal appeal to many heads that goes a long way versus stans like us.

ill just do more to add to discussion. blackout! by red n meth

YOU (def classic 5/5)
da rock wilder (5/5)
run 4 cover (5/5)
fire in the hole (5/5)
how high (5/5)

tear it off (4.5/5)
cereal killer (4.5/5)
maaad crew (4.5/5)
dats dat shyt (4.0/5)


blackout a personal classic to me. so are other two. idk if id call any real classics tho but def 4 mic albums

i saw you said either way on ironman. to me thats a def personal classic but no matter how good it is i dont get mad when someoen dont give it 5 mic status but it has WAY MORE songs that illmatic and just as many 5 stars joints

the soul controller 5/5
daytona 500 5/5
winter warz 5/5
motherless child 5/5
all that i got is you 5/5
camay 5/5
fish 5/5
the faster blade 5/5
260 5/5
after the smoke is clear 5/5

thats 10. and theres 3 more songs on there least 4.5/5 or more and a cpl 4


gza beneath the surface

amplified sample 4.5/5
beneath the surface 5/5
crash ya crew 4.5/5
breaker breaker 4/5
high price small reward 4/5
1112 4.5/5
victim 4/5
publicity 4.5/5
mic trippin 5/5

basically this way every wu album classic... truth. works for me lol. good thread bro.

 

[SirBiatch]

Real time matters because history can be rewritten and skewed via media brainwashing and self promotion. You've even just admitted that people bandwagon,its easy to decide which is the case.

I understand what you're saying and I kinda agree. After all, in real time, very few thought Reasonable Doubt was any kind of classic. I remember hearing it in 97 and thinking "meh, this is cool" then being surprised years later when people were referring to it as some kinda classic.

People rewrite history all the time but what really matters is the music. Over time, it gets harder to push a narrative if the music aint as potent as people pretend it is.

Illmatic isn't just some slept on classic who had an organic rise to be recognized in the vein it is today,as I've even heard it called "hiphops bible". There was a media push in real time that fans rejected and chose other more impactful classics over it.

That's tinfoil "east coast supremacy" type shyt. I don't think it was that insidious.

And today there is a large segment outside of the east coast who would not agree with using that album as THE rubric whatsoever.

like I said: i could give a fukk what someone outside the east coast thinks, especially if there's insecurity at play. The fact of the matter is that NY created this artform and are the best practitioners of the art hands down. It's not debatable. And Illmatic is the pinnacle of that practice, so it's gotta be in the rubric. It's not the only album that's part of the rubic but it's part of it nonetheless.

Real classics are impactful and move the needle among every demographic.

Since when?

You're telling me that if middle America, young and old, didn't bop along to Illmatic then it can't be a 'real' classic? Huh? You do realize that hip hop was anti-mainstream as hell for a long time and there's absolutely no way such an edgy artform was gonna pop with every demographic in its original spirit....

Breh, The Wire is a CLASSIC TV show. That shyt did like no numbers and didn't even get nominated for any awards. It certainly wasn't a hit with every demographic (and there's absolutely no way it was gonna be a hit with every demographic) but it's obviously one of the greatest shows ever created. Quality speaks for itself.

If not why should we take your opinion seriously whatsoever?You can't possibly think your opinion is more valuable than black americans who are really from the streets,and among the culture that spawn this music we love?

russell: I have more in common with the greatest rappers/producers of this artform than some random street wannabe from a city/tiny town far as fukk from NY without any of the attributes that make NY great (and hip hop by extension).
You should read up on my fraud rules

http://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-sirbiatch-guide-to-spotting-a-hip-hop-fraud-wow.470963/

We have more of a right to say Illmatic is garbage than you would have the right to call it great.

nope

and Death Certificate definitely aged better than Illmatic,all they talked about last year during the anniversary was how relevant the content still was. If you mean the sound,thats crazy because Illmatic definitlely doesn't fair much better in that regard when compared to other classics. I hope you aren't completely ignoring content and style when you think timelessness.

Dude, Illmatic is superior to Death Certificate. Stop forcing it. The beats are superior. The vocals are superior. The rhymes are superior. You know this already, but you're not cool with it. Hence the coastal insecurity.

 

[ThaRealness]

Agreed for the most part. I think classics should be the pinnacle of the genre. Stuff like Illmatic, Infamous, OB4CL, Liquid Swords, Doggystyle are hands down classic albums because they're damn near flawless IMO and can be played and enjoyed to this day.

Hip hop's become obsessed with labeling EVERYTHING a classic so quickly nowadays man it's insane. The truth is there's only a handful of albums that are classic like that because enough time has passed to view it as such. I wouldn't call GRODT classic, it has a lot great tracks but the obvious weak stuff stands out and I think it's just fine to label it as a "great" album. Not classic. I feel kinda the same way about Live.Love.A$AP but then again it's a probably the best mixtape of all time so it's the closest we'll get to a classic for that type of project.

Its true. On the flip side there's alot of 90s albums that we call classic just because they were strong projects in the golden era.

 

[SirBiatch]

Dope vid. I'm glad to you're back and doing things like this.. would be dope if you did album reviews

I don't even know how I'd do that.

"This album is trash. Next."

"This album is trash. Next."

This isn't just some internet persona like my stalkers want to believe. I really believe 99% of the stuff that is so-called 'hip hop' over the last decade, especially when it comes to albums, are complete garbage. It gets boring yapping about why something's garbage on video.

But I appreciate the comment and I'll see what I can do.

I agree with the replay value. I tried to listen to GKMC last week and ended up skipping more than half of the album.

GKMC has always been a weak album. Shyne gave well-thought out reasons (he hated the production off the bat, and I agree with him on that) and Interscope shut him down.

Live love asap is a classic but so is kush and Oj

You still listen to Kush and OJ? Wouldn't someone attack you for saying GKMC has no replay value while liking Kush?

what are the 3 strongest songs on Kush?

 

[MidnightMercenary]

I don't even know how I'd do that.

"This album is trash. Next."

"This album is trash. Next."

This isn't just some internet persona like my stalkers want to believe. I really believe 99% of the stuff that is so-called 'hip hop' over the last decade, especially when it comes to albums, are complete garbage. It gets boring yapping about why something's garbage on video.

But I appreciate the comment and I'll see what I can do.



GKMC has always been a weak album. Shyne gave well-thought out reasons (he hated the production off the bat, and I agree with him on that) and Interscope shut him down.



You still listen to Kush and OJ? Wouldn't someone attack you for saying GKMC has no replay value while liking Kush?

what are the 3 strongest songs on Kush?

I got a suggestion for the album reviews.. maybe you could go over albums that you find are underappreciated e.g. Ghetto Millionaire. Could introduce people to some music

Not sure if there's a point of talking about albums everyone loves (36 Chambers for example) unless you somehow make it interesting