Religion/Spirituality The Intelligent Design/God/Theism Thread

[blackzeus]

quick question, how long ago did the grand designer create the universe and how long ago did he/she create the earth?

1) You're asking a loaded question, I never said there is a Grand Designer, I said that our universe exists due to intelligent design. Put it this way, the sperm inseminating the egg is the cause of a baby that comes out the mother's womb. You note the baby is a complex entity, and conclude that this baby's skeletal structure and central nervous system begs intelligent design. Does that mean the mother is the Designer?

2) I don't know how long ago the universe came into existence (I don't like the word created), but it's at least a few billion years

3) I don't know how long ago the earth was created, however, seeing as the life conditions on Earth are so unique, it wouldn't surprise me if we discover sometime in the future some alien species caused the conditions of life on earth to be possible

 

[blackzeus]

But why? Who are you to even determine what's possible in the realm of cosmology. I might agree with you, but probably for a different reason.

The odds of one entity designing the entire universe is comparable to the odds of one person building the Sears Tower (f*ck you Willis ), it's highly improbable

 

[NoMayo15]

The odds of one entity designing the entire universe is comparable to the odds of one person building the Sears Tower (f*ck you Willis ), it's highly improbable

True, but people are constrained by certain physical limitations. Besides, a single person COULD build the Sears Tower, it just wouldn't be efficient. Suppose there existed a being that didn't have such restraints.

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

@blackzeus I don't believe you spent all that time looking for defenses of ID without realizing it's extremely closely associated with creationist groups that have beef with Darwinism. William Dembski, a guy you quoted, raises funds for his ID "research" by giving sermons in churches. In fact, let's look at the sources of your articles:

http://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-intelligent-design.html

http://www.uncommondescent.com/category/news/

Darwinism, Richard Dawkins, Darwinism, People Mad that NDG Tyson tweeted jokes on Christmas, Darwinism...

Uncommon Descent is a blog created by William Dembski in April 2005[1].

William Albert "Bill" Dembski (born July 18, 1960) is an American mathematician, philosopher and theologian. A proponent of intelligent design (ID), specifically the concept of specified complexity, he serves as of 2013 as a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC).[1] In 2012, he taught as the Phillip E. Johnson Research Professor of Science and Culture at the Southern Evangelical Seminary in Matthews, North Carolina near Charlotte.[2]

Dembski has written books about intelligent design, including The Design Inference (1998), Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology (1999), The Design Revolution (2004), The End of Christianity (2009), and Intelligent Design Uncensored (2010).

The concept of intelligent design involves the argument that an intelligent cause is responsible for the complexity of life and that one can detect that cause empirically.[3] Dembski postulates that probability theory can be used to prove irreducible complexity (IC), or what he calls "specified complexity."[4] The scientific community sees intelligent design—and Dembski's concept of specified complexity—as a form of conservative Christian creationism attempting to portray itself as science.[5]

 

[HideoKojima]

you contradict your first post's line about antropolgists and monkeys with this one.

I believe there's a God/Divine Creator

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

I believe everything on earth was created by a Master Designer

I never said there is a Grand Designer

 

[blackzeus]

...

1) I believe the earth had a Master Designer. I don't believe the life conditions existing on earth specifically existed by accident. Even in my last few posts I mentioned an alien species possible creating the conditions on earth for life to be formed. That's my personal belief, opinion if you will, has nothing to do with ID. People asked me to state my personal beliefs and I did

2) I never said there is a Grand Designer for the universe, I said according to ID (of which I am a proponent of) the universe as we know it did not come to existence by accident.

Let me know if there is anything else you need me to clarify about my personal opinions/belief, that has no relevance to ID as a theory and what ID states is a logical conclusion to empirical data

 

[blackzeus]

True, but people are constrained by certain physical limitations. Besides, a single person COULD build the Sears Tower, it just wouldn't be efficient. Suppose there existed a being that didn't have such restraints.

But that's not science, that's religion/philosophy/opinion/belief. If we're scientists, we start with the premise that something alerts us to the possibility of such a being existing, make our observations, and then come to an empirical conclusion.

 

[blackzeus]

@blackzeus I don't believe you spent all that time looking for defenses of ID without realizing it's extremely closely associated with creationist groups that have beef with Darwinism. William Dembski, a guy you quoted, raises funds for his ID "research" by giving sermons in churches. In fact, let's look at the sources of your articles:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/category/news/

Darwinism, Richard Dawkins, Darwinism, People Mad that NDG Tyson tweeted jokes on Christmas, Darwinism...

"Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." --- William Dembski, creationist and "Intelligent Design" proponent

@VMR you see what I mean breh? @Hollywood Hogan , please read posts #13 and #36, I already reviewed this

Did you read posts 13 and 36 before you decided to post the same argument you posted on page 18?

 

[blackzeus]

you contradict your first post's line about antropolgists and monkeys with this one.

I believe there's a God/Divine Creator

Where did I contradict myself? And there's nothing wrong with having a belief, that's your right as an American

 

[NoMayo15]

But that's not science, that's religion/philosophy/opinion/belief. If we're scientists, we start with the premise that something alerts us to the possibility of such a being existing, make our observations, and then come to an empirical conclusion.

Right, I know. But we're no longer talking about what's demonstrable, we're talking about what's possible. My contention is that you don't know what you think you know. You've formed beliefs based on some flimsy deductions, and appeals to probability. With unlimited time and resources, it IS, in fact, possible for a single individual to build the Sears Tower. Now we happen to have good reason to think that wasn't the case ... but it has NOTHING to do with how complex that building is.

 

[blackzeus]

Right, I know. But we're no longer talking about what's demonstrable, we're talking about what's possible. My contention is that you don't know what you think you know. You've formed beliefs based on some flimsy deductions, and appeals to probability. With unlimited time and resources, it IS, in fact, possible for a single individual to build the Sears Tower. Now we happen to have good reason to think that wasn't the case ... but it has NOTHING to do with how complex that building is.

Are you one of those "anything's possible" type of guys? I didn't say anything about complexity. The average man lives to be what, 75 years old? Unlimited time and resources is not possible for a human being, that's what I was going off of, a human being with unlimited time and resources is a demi-god breh Your average lifespan having human being is not going to be able to build the Sears Tower buy himself. Matter of fact, he wouldn't even be able to mine enough iron ore to make the scaffolding required by himself within his lifetime, it's logistically and physically impossible breh.

Conversely, assume a being with unlimited time and resources is the Creator of the Universe. What's the common creationist argument with evolution? "if we came from monkeys, how come monkeys don't still change to human beings?" (which by the way is a very valid point ) Well, if there is a Creator of the Universe, what is He/She creating right now? It's a scientific fact the universe is expanding, so if there is a Creator, we should be able to note He/She/It is the cause of the expansion of the universe, supernova, new planets, etc.


Observation is the basis of all scientific research, you don't need to be a genius to be a scientist, just have an open mind and observe And I don't know about you, but I've never observed a giant hand making a new planet

 

[NoMayo15]

Are you one of those "anything's possible" type of guys? Your average lifespan having human being is not going to be able to build the Sears Tower by himself.

To some degree, yes.

How do you know this? It took 3 years for a team of 2000 men to build it, stopping because of various lawsuits. How do you demonstrate that it's not possible for someone with 50-60 years to do?

(which by the way is a very valid point )

This is how I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to evolution.

Well, if there is a Creator of the Universe, what is He/She creating right now? It's a scientific fact the universe is expanding, so if there is a Creator, we should be able to note He/She/It is the cause of the expansion of the universe, supernova, new planets, etc.

I don't know. We could posit all sorts of things he/she/it is doing now or whether it still continues doing anything at all. But I don't think there happens to be one, and I don't know how someone could detect it either.

 

[blackzeus]

To some degree, yes.

How do you know this? It took 3 years for a team of 2000 men to build it, stopping because of various lawsuits. How do you demonstrate that it's not possible for someone with 50-60 years to do?

yes, that's with all the equipment ready breh, we talkin' about one man building it from scratch. he's gotta make the cement, the glass, mine the steel, smelt it, all within 80 years? And that's assuming he already has the knowledge ingrained in his head a la the Matrix or some sh*t

This is how I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to evolution.

I hear you, but you gotta admit stating a common ancestor for homo sapien and pan troglodytes (chimps) and then stating there's no way to observe this because it happens over several millenia raises some basic questions, whether scientifically relevant or not, they are valid logical questions

I don't know. We could posit all sorts of things he/she/it is doing now or whether it still continues doing anything at all. But I don't think there happens to be one, and I don't know how someone could detect it either.

Well you raised the question, and it seems like you answered to a degree. All I'm saying the universe is always expanding, analogous to an unfinished skyscraper. I should still be able to see guys working at the top no?

Anyway breh, the point of this thread was to illuminate what ID actually posits. Nobody has to agree, but I feel content with the discussion and the questions raised and answered, thanks to all who participated, and will continue to add to this thread, maybe over the weekend will detail the advances on junk DNA and its relevance to the ID theory

 

[tmonster]

I don't know

ok