The Intercept just proved Bolsonaro plotted to sink Lula in Brazil with a fake scandal

[DonKnock]

He was probably over sentenced, but he was certainly taking part in corruption.

Overzealous proecution and the politicizing of his case to help sway the election, while also corrupt, doesn't change the fact that he was corrupt himself.

Similarly, having a more palatable or shared political ideology isn't cause in my book to overlook corruption.

Taking a step back from the specifics of the case and this forthcoming series of articles, to me this is just another tragic example of a movement being too closely tied to an individual and not its own merits.


Neither Mandela, MLK, nor Ghandi were charged and convicted for being corrupt while being the president.

Imagine "Crooked" Hillary Clinton supporting Lula during her presidential run.

This whole article is about how the charge of corruption itself was a made up scandal for political purposes.

And then you responded to a post that said Leftists are now proven right they went after him for purely political reasons and it's not a conspiratorial claim.

And now you are saying that what they did was completely justified and the leftists who are trying to claim a win here ARE asserting what you believe to be a conspiracy theory.


So now that you are saying that Lula was imprisoned on completely justified grounds, we have centrists claiming that Leftists are pushing a conspiracy, so the post you responded to was right in the first place

 

[Pressure]

This whole article is about how the charge of corruption itself was a made up scandal for political purposes.

And then you responded to a post that said Leftists are now proven right they went after him for purely political reasons and it's not a conspiratorial claim.

And now you are saying that what they did was completely justified and the leftists who are trying to claim a win here ARE asserting what you believe to be a conspiracy theory.


So now that you are saying that Lula was imprisoned on completely justified grounds, we have centrists claiming that Leftists are pushing a conspiracy, so the post you responded to was right in the first place

The article shows that the prosecutors had political bias.

That the prosecutors potentially crossed ethical lines to place the case under Operation Car Wash.

But nothing goes on to show that He was not indeed corrupt.

It was talked about briefly last year, but the appeals court having affirmed the ruling pretty much killed the most pivotal part of the conspiracy theory - - that he was framed.

I'm not a centrist.

 

[Pressure]

You also conveniently ignored my key point:

• If you're not involved in corrupt behavior you're less likely to be swept up in a corruption conviction by political opponents

 

[F K]

The article shows that the prosecutors had political bias.

That the prosecutors potentially crossed ethical lines to place the case under Operation Car Wash.

But nothing goes on to show that He was not indeed corrupt.

It was talked about briefly last year, but the appeals court having affirmed the ruling pretty much killed the most pivotal part of the conspiracy theory - - that he was framed.

I'm not a centrist.

The articles also show that a presiding judge was offering advice and weighing in on strategy with the prosecutors. The entire concept of a justice system rests on the principle of impartial judges.

 

[F K]

You also conveniently ignored my key point:

• If you're not involved in corrupt behavior you're less likely to be swept up in a corruption conviction by political opponents

you're assuming that the people involved in the judiciary are taking their responsibilities seriously and not getting swept up in their own biases/political motivations. the history of human existence is full of innocent people who have been railroaded on all kinds of fake charges, and of people who have committed crimes and gone unpunished.

 

[Pressure]

you're assuming that the people involved in the judiciary are taking their responsibilities seriously and not getting swept up in their own biases/political motivations. the history of human existence is full of innocent people who have been railroaded on all kinds of fake charges, and of people who have committed crimes and gone unpunished.

You're assuming the entire judiciary is corrupt.

 

[F K]

You're assuming the entire judiciary is corrupt.

I'm just stating that the judiciary is sometimes corrupt. Why does the judiciary have to be completely corrupt or completely infallible?

Some convictions are real and valid, and some are not. That's why people like The Innocence Project ,the Intercept and others have to constantly "watch the watchmen", and make sure they are doing the right thing. Judges get caught taking payoffs and kickbacks all the time, police get caught inducing false confessions, eyewitnesses are unreliable as fukk and i'm supposed to accept a conviction as irrefutable proof of wrongdoing?

 

[Pressure]

The articles also show that a presiding judge was offering advice and weighing in on strategy with the prosecutors. The entire concept of a justice system rests on the principle of impartial judges.

That's a myth. Judges have long been politicized both here and there.

But the appellate courts have long served as a mechanism to determine if their own bias prevented justice.

Are you making the argument now that the entire judiciary is corrupt as well?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

@Call Me James we obviously have our arguments, but I think you're on the right track here.

SOMETHING happened. How it was handled might have been the cause for concern.

However, a lot of right wingers use "corruption allegations" to undermine their opponents while doing WAY worse themselves

 

[Pressure]

I'm just stating that the judiciary is sometimes corrupt. Why does the judiciary have to be completely corrupt or completely infallible?

Some convictions are real and valid, and some are not. That's why people like The Innocence Project ,the Intercept and others have to constantly "watch the watchmen", and make sure they are doing the right thing. Judges get caught taking payoffs and kickbacks all the time, police get caught inducing false confessions, eyewitnesses are unreliable as fukk and i'm supposed to accept a conviction as irrefutable proof of wrongdoing?

Nah. This is a strawman created by @Domknock and yourself.

Most people don't go out of their way to offer support to convicted criminals.

Even black folks bushed OJ

And now you are saying that what they did was completely justified and the leftists who are trying to claim a win here ARE asserting what you believe to be a conspiracy theory.

I merely stated that he was a convicted criminal 2x over and he's facing 6 other charges.

American politicians not running a support campaign for someone who was a convicted of corruption isn't proof of your claim initial claim of the following.

I remember when centrists said that this was just another leftist conspiracy theory. Funny how many times those end up being true

So are you saying that Lula was not involved in corrupt actions, full stop?

 

[F K]

That's a myth. Judges have long been politicized both here and there.

But the appellate courts have long served as a mechanism to determine if their own bias prevented justice.

Are you making the argument now that the entire judiciary is corrupt as well?

I don't know enough about the Brazilian justice system to make a definitive statement. My own family comes from the Caribbean/Central am and I wouldn't trust those systems at all. .

It's clear from the intercept releases that the appellate courts didn't have all the info, and that judges in brazil are capable of acting unethically. You don't need a whole judiciary to stich someone up, just a couple of judges in the right place.

 

[Pressure]

@Call Me James we obviously have our arguments, but I think you're on the right track here.

SOMETHING happened. How it was handled might have been the cause for concern.

However, a lot of right wingers use "corruption allegations" to undermine their opponents while doing WAY worse themselves

Look, I think they are shady and used the levers of justice to silence a political opponent. But I also believe he was taking part in corruption.

It not like these two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Pressure]

I don't know enough about the Brazilian justice system to make a definitive statement. My own family comes from the Caribbean/Central am and I wouldn't trust those systems at all. .

It's clear from the intercept releases that the appellate courts didn't have all the info, and that judges in brazil are capable of acting unethically. You don't need a whole judiciary to stich someone up, just a couple of judges in the right place.

He was convicted in two separate cases.

 

[F K]

Nah. This is a strawman created by @Domknock and yourself.





I merely stated that he was a convicted criminal 2x over and he's facing 6 other charges.

American politicians not running a support campaign for someone who was a convicted of corruption isn't proof of your claim initial claim of the following.



So are you saying that Lula was not involved in corrupt actions, full stop?

I can't say for sure that Lula has clean hand, I can't say for sure that he was corrupt.
What I know is that the prosecutors and judges have indicated/implied they couldn't find any definitive proof and yet he's still in jail.
When Geronimo Pratt was rotting in jail, My parents were donating to a support campaign for him, and american politicians SHOULD have been trying to get people like him out of jail. I will concede that the centrists on the Coli have not been as aggressive in claiming the process was above-the-board, but I have argued with plenty of self described centrists on other social media platforms who have maintained that everything was fine here.

BactaTankVader 323 points 15 hours ago

Brazilian here. I'm livid. Even though I'm center-left, for the past three years I've been defending a moderate position on this issue, asking people not to buy into the "Lula is a political prisoner" talking point without going after the facts.

Now I can say without a vestige of doubt: Lula is a political prisoner.

Whether he's guilty or not doesn't matter anymore. The violations of due process are so egregious and so blatant that he never got a fair trial to begin with.

Not only did the prosecutors openly discuss manipulating the lawsuit to influence the election, the judge himself gave advice to the prosecutor in charge. This is obviously illegal.

The entire lawsuit is void. If there's any scrap of justice left in this country, Lula's entire case will be thrown out, he'll successfully sue the Federal Government for damages, and each and every shytstain involved in this charade will be expelled from public service and be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

But I'm Brazilian. I'm not keeping my hopes up.

 

[F K]

He was convicted in two separate cases.

If the intercept doesn't find anything janky about the second case, i'm happy for him to remain in jail, and hope they get all of the other corrupt politicians too.