The Israeli Perspective: The Middle East Problem

ill

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:wtf: breh look at the facts on the ground

The Palestinians don't control the West Bank outside a few cities. There's nearly half a million settlers who are radicalized and protected by the IDF.

The Israelis aren't going to let the Palestinians control their own land militarily.

Fatah has been trying to surrender for years now, Israel always making excuses because in the end they still have to limit settlements and to give some limited rights to the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are by and large disillusioned politically. The West Bank is basically all settlements with no real Palestinian foothold. ANy peace treaty won't answer the questions of Palestinian refugees and kicking the settlers out. The two state solution is dead. Israel subsidizes settler expansion.

I doubt they will ever get to an agreement where they kick those people out as they did in Sinai in the 1980s and Gaza in 2005.

But one state is Israel's worst nightmare because they would effectively have a South Africa scenario where they would implement 'seperate but equal' policies where Palestinians are not full citizens and remain in cities and ghettos that pale in comparison to the living conditions in Israel...

Ehud Olmert has come out and said they face a South Africa situation without a 2 state solution.

And Netyanhu is not even pretending to support a two state solution anymore now. Israeli politics has shifted even more right wing and more extreme.

This whole thing isn't sustainable.

Infact the entire "peace process" was an attempt for Arafat and the elite in the PLO to lie to their people and give up the dream of a real and independent viable state... all they wanted out of the process was some concessions from the Israelis to make it look convincing to the Palestinian people.

A success culmination of what started in Madrid and what both Rabin and Arafat wanted would have created a fake Palestinian state, one essentially still an Israeli colonial possession but they would have made it look really good and fool the people, the Gulf States and Egypt were 100% behind it, only the nationalist factions in the PLO and Hamas would have been against it, but part of the deal would have been a police state like other Arab countries and they would have been suppressed in cooperation with Shin Bet.

All this derailed when Rabin died and Likud killed the process with foot dragging, Hamas suicide bombings and rockets helped as well,
but in essence the plan failed because the Israelis believed that they could have their cake and eat it, and they have...

I fully agree that a one state solution will never work. It would defeat the purpose of a Jewish homeland and a Jewish majority. A two-state solution is the only way to go IMO. The West Bank has been peaceful in recent memory. Gaza, not so much. Why is that? Could it be that the people in the West Bank stopped trying to shoot rockets at Israel? Or that they stopped sending in suicide bombers? Logical, aint it?

You say you don't think Israel will kick the settlers out if it brings peace? Well, you said it yourself but they've done it twice in their history to foster peace. To say they wouldn't do the same in the future to gain true peace is plain wrong. They've shown they are willing to make serious concessions to gain real peace.

Palestine doesn't need a military. Its only enemy is Israel and if theres a two state peaceful solution, then they will have no enemy. Unless of course you don't trust their Arab brethren neighbors :leostare:
 

FAH1223

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I fully agree that a one state solution will never work. It would defeat the purpose of a Jewish homeland and a Jewish majority. A two-state solution is the only way to go IMO. The West Bank has been peaceful in recent memory. Gaza, not so much. Why is that? Could it be that the people in the West Bank stopped trying to shoot rockets at Israel? Or that they stopped sending in suicide bombers? Logical, aint it?

You say you don't think Israel will kick the settlers out if it brings peace? Well, you said it yourself but they've done it twice in their history to foster peace. To say they wouldn't do the same in the future to gain true peace is plain wrong. They've shown they are willing to make serious concessions to gain real peace.

Palestine doesn't need a military. Its only enemy is Israel and if theres a two state peaceful solution, then they will have no enemy. Unless of course you don't trust their Arab brethren neighbors :leostare:

Breh, Israel politically is a lot different now than the past two times.

A two state solution basically has Palestine as a colonial possession of Israel. Sure it looks good to have State of Palestine with State of Israel side by side but are the Palestinians going to have equal access to water? Equal freedom of movement?

Also what about the Palestinian refugees?

There's a lot of questions and Israel isn't really willing to answer then to make a peace with the Palestinians.

Even if Hamas tomorrow dropped their charter and recognized Israel, you really believe Israel will negotiate on good faith?

I doubt it, they'll laugh at it all as they're laughing now in Gaza
 

ill

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Breh, Israel politically is a lot different now than the past two times.

A two state solution basically has Palestine as a colonial possession of Israel. Sure it looks good to have State of Palestine with State of Israel side by side but are the Palestinians going to have equal access to water? Equal freedom of movement?

Also what about the Palestinian refugees?

There's a lot of questions and Israel isn't really willing to answer then to make a peace with the Palestinians.

Even if Hamas tomorrow dropped their charter and recognized Israel, you really believe Israel will negotiate on good faith?

I doubt it, they'll laugh at it all as they're laughing now in Gaza


Yes. If the most powerful political force in Gaza recognizes Israel and drops their charter of killing all Jews/Israelis than yes, Israel would in good faith come back to the discussion table with a serious agenda of creating lasting peace. While Israel loves and needs its military-industrial complex right now, if there was peace in the region, the needs for that complex would dwindle and over time the extreme militarization of Israel would plummet. You don't need a large and advanced army in times of peace. Look at Europe. They have been at peace for 50+ years and all of their military units have drastically declined.

I'm not saying if everyone drops their arms today that there would be peace tomorrow. Its obviously a lengthy process but each side giving out "good faith" would be a very large step in the right direction.

Also, I view a two state solution as Palestinians getting their own basic utitilies. If you want your own nation, you have to support your own nation. Why would Israel give welfare to them in a two state situation? Isn't the whole premise that Palestinians would be independent and self-reliant?
 

2Quik4UHoes

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Breh, Israel politically is a lot different now than the past two times.

A two state solution basically has Palestine as a colonial possession of Israel. Sure it looks good to have State of Palestine with State of Israel side by side but are the Palestinians going to have equal access to water? Equal freedom of movement?

Also what about the Palestinian refugees?

There's a lot of questions and Israel isn't really willing to answer then to make a peace with the Palestinians.

Even if Hamas tomorrow dropped their charter and recognized Israel, you really believe Israel will negotiate on good faith?

I doubt it, they'll laugh at it all as they're laughing now in Gaza

That's what this all boils down to imo.
 

tstone

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Ahhh the Captain Save a Hoe brigade is out in full force lately.

Palestine was never a nation. There is no such thing as Palestinian people. They are Jordanians. The land has been home to multiple races, religion, and nations over the years. The Jews were in that land at least three different time periods. Saying its "Palestinian" land is a joke especially when "Palestinians" aren't from there. For you nitwits, that means the Jews didn't take land from them since they didn't own it or belong there either. And don't try to give me that bullshyt that its all Euro-Jews that moved there. Theres been Jewish communities in Israel for thousands of years. Ya know, those "Real Jews" that even the crazy Hebrew Israelite idiots would claim are real Jews.

Israel has consistently given back land for peace. Its not a hard concept to understand unless you've been brainwashed by militants like Hamas, PLO, Hezbelloh, etc. fukk every one of those organizations and anyone that supports them. The best line in the clip was what would happen if each side laid down their arms. It tells you everything you need to know about who you're dealing with. The Israelis and the region would gain PEACE if Hamas etc laid down their arms. However, if the Israelis do it, it means their annihilation. :camby::camby::camby: Civilized people >>>> Savages

If you question why Israel takes the rash actions that it does today, look no further than the two original wars. How are you going to react when all your neighbors are gunning for you? For all of you blacks that think you've had it hard and have been oppressed since the day you were born, well guess what, Israel feels the same way, literally. Since the day of its founding, Israel has been under attack by the entire region. Everyone wants horrible shyt to happen including mass death while all Israel wants is peace.



Jews didn't have a hand in the Arab Spring. The shytty culture, oppression, and infestation of extremism caused the Arab Spring. Blame Jews for the bullshyt that Arabs created for themselves, breh.


:umad:
I think you are seriously delusional. The issue is white supremacy, the Israeli having European features seen as superior, the Palestinians having darker features, and life is not worth a damn. With all the technology that Israel has you don't think they can see theirs four boys playing on an open beach. The Palestinians are Arabs that resided in the area for thousands of years. Just because the name did not exist, does not mean the people never inhabited it. Who help the British kick the Turks out of present day Israel, it was not the Jews it was Arabs. No one is saying that there never been Semitic people that were Jewish living in the Area, they been there living peaceful at the same time they were prosecuted and murdered in Europe. The issue people are having is that this is 18th century colonialism by a majority of Israeli who can trace their ancestry back to Europe since the first Millennium depriving land from people of color. They control movement and resources in and out of Gaza due to a blockade. Have Palestinians living in cages in the west bank because of the settlements. If Israel wants peace get rid of the colonialism mindset, and remove themselves entirely of the Palestinians affairs.
 

FAH1223

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Yes. If the most powerful political force in Gaza recognizes Israel and drops their charter of killing all Jews/Israelis than yes, Israel would in good faith come back to the discussion table with a serious agenda of creating lasting peace. While Israel loves and needs its military-industrial complex right now, if there was peace in the region, the needs for that complex would dwindle and over time the extreme militarization of Israel would plummet. You don't need a large and advanced army in times of peace. Look at Europe. They have been at peace for 50+ years and all of their military units have drastically declined.

I'm not saying if everyone drops their arms today that there would be peace tomorrow. Its obviously a lengthy process but each side giving out "good faith" would be a very large step in the right direction.

Also, I view a two state solution as Palestinians getting their own basic utitilies. If you want your own nation, you have to support your own nation. Why would Israel give welfare to them in a two state situation? Isn't the whole premise that Palestinians would be independent and self-reliant?

You're very optimistic.

And the Palestinians are a very educated population so I have no doubt they can build infrastructure and what not. My concerns are the allocation of resources and the Palestinians having total control over their lands, their water, their natural resources, etc to create a great economy.
 

Lord Beasley

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Ill made a point in this thread, but you fukkboys still on that "nuke jews" bullshyt. growing trend in HL: when someone speaks the truth, ignore it or fabricate some bullshyt.

and this dude had the gall to say all jews have european features while all palestinians are darker :dead: therefore its about white supremacy :russ:



and ppl will actually agree with him :mjlol:
 

The Odum of Ala Igbo

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Ahhh the Captain Save a Hoe brigade is out in full force lately.

Palestine was never a nation. There is no such thing as Palestinian people. They are Jordanians. The land has been home to multiple races, religion, and nations over the years. The Jews were in that land at least three different time periods. Saying its "Palestinian" land is a joke especially when "Palestinians" aren't from there. For you nitwits, that means the Jews didn't take land from them since they didn't own it or belong there either. And don't try to give me that bullshyt that its all Euro-Jews that moved there. Theres been Jewish communities in Israel for thousands of years. Ya know, those "Real Jews" that even the crazy Hebrew Israelite idiots would claim are real Jews.

Israel has consistently given back land for peace. Its not a hard concept to understand unless you've been brainwashed by militants like Hamas, PLO, Hezbelloh, etc. fukk every one of those organizations and anyone that supports them. The best line in the clip was what would happen if each side laid down their arms. It tells you everything you need to know about who you're dealing with. The Israelis and the region would gain PEACE if Hamas etc laid down their arms. However, if the Israelis do it, it means their annihilation. :camby::camby::camby: Civilized people >>>> Savages

If you question why Israel takes the rash actions that it does today, look no further than the two original wars. How are you going to react when all your neighbors are gunning for you? For all of you blacks that think you've had it hard and have been oppressed since the day you were born, well guess what, Israel feels the same way, literally. Since the day of its founding, Israel has been under attack by the entire region. Everyone wants horrible shyt to happen including mass death while all Israel wants is peace.



Jews didn't have a hand in the Arab Spring. The shytty culture, oppression, and infestation of extremism caused the Arab Spring. Blame Jews for the bullshyt that Arabs created for themselves, breh.


:umad:

The Palestinian people do exist. Palestinian nationalism started around the same time Jewish nationalism (Zionism) came into being. Also, to claim Palestinians are Jordanians are strange because Palestine and what was then called Transjordan came into being roughly around the same time too after the First World War. Like all ethnic groups and cultures, Palestinians are an 'imagined community'. Furthermore, genetic tests have shown that Palestinians are descended from the original inhabitants of Palestine/Canaan and are genetically related to the Jews of Israel today. It's erroneous to claim that simply because the Palestinians are Muslims or Christians that they do not have original claim to the land. A significant portion of Israel's population are Jews from Europe and from the Middle East outside of Palestine. To state that those people have a better claim of occupying that territory over someone who's ancestors who've probably lived there at the very least since the Arab Conquest of Palestine seems very strange to me.

It is true that Israelis have made land concessions to Egypt (Sinai) in particular and Fatah (Gaza Strip) for peace, however this argument doesn't take away from the fact that continuing illegal occupation of the West Bank continues. This occupation doesn't only take territory from Palestinians but it also saps the West Bank of economic vitality and the dignity of its citizens. The irony of Israel's actions there is that it weakens moderate support for a peace plan while strengthening radical settlers in Israel and radical militants in the West Bank and Gaza. Even if Hamas laid down their arms, how would the illegal occupation of the West Bank be settled?

I'm not sure if all of Israel wants peace. What type of peace do they want? Some members of Israel's Knesset want peace which envisions Israel controlling the West Bank and besieging Gaza in perpetuity. Others want a negotiated peace plan over territory that was gained after the Six Day War. While others like the status quo of perpetual rockets and Israeli incursions into Gaza. Your portrayal of the Israel-Palestine conflict is troubling

:sas2:
 

lini...

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Ahhh the Captain Save a Hoe brigade is out in full force lately.

Palestine was never a nation. There is no such thing as Palestinian people. They are Jordanians. The land has been home to multiple races, religion, and nations over the years. The Jews were in that land at least three different time periods. Saying its "Palestinian" land is a joke especially when "Palestinians" aren't from there. For you nitwits, that means the Jews didn't take land from them since they didn't own it or belong there either. And don't try to give me that bullshyt that its all Euro-Jews that moved there. Theres been Jewish communities in Israel for thousands of years. Ya know, those "Real Jews" that even the crazy Hebrew Israelite idiots would claim are real Jews.

Israel has consistently given back land for peace. Its not a hard concept to understand unless you've been brainwashed by militants like Hamas, PLO, Hezbelloh, etc. fukk every one of those organizations and anyone that supports them. The best line in the clip was what would happen if each side laid down their arms. It tells you everything you need to know about who you're dealing with. The Israelis and the region would gain PEACE if Hamas etc laid down their arms. However, if the Israelis do it, it means their annihilation. :camby::camby::camby: Civilized people >>>> Savages

If you question why Israel takes the rash actions that it does today, look no further than the two original wars. How are you going to react when all your neighbors are gunning for you? For all of you blacks that think you've had it hard and have been oppressed since the day you were born, well guess what, Israel feels the same way, literally. Since the day of its founding, Israel has been under attack by the entire region. Everyone wants horrible shyt to happen including mass death while all Israel wants is peace.



Jews didn't have a hand in the Arab Spring. The shytty culture, oppression, and infestation of extremism caused the Arab Spring. Blame Jews for the bullshyt that Arabs created for themselves, breh.


:umad:


Were Palestinians living in the land? Were the Palestinians the overwhelming majority before it was made legal for every Jewish person on earth to move into that land? Were the Jewish people offered Uganda and refused the offer? Does previous theft of a land make you the permanent owner? And tell me, who has the 2nd or 3rd highest percentage of skin cancer victims in the world (after the Dutch of SOUTH AFRICA!!!)? Were Stern gang and Irgun terrorists? Who committed the 1st acts of terrorism in that land? Was this terrorism and murder a means to take their land? Tell me about the Koenig Memorandum which was a government document which described how they would systemically discriminate against the Palestinians to expel them from land? Who is ACTUALLY being wiped off of the map, right now? Why does Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter and Mandela equate this to an Apartheid state (2 of them are experts on Apartheid and Carter is an unafraid former President who made great efforts to fix this problem)? Why has Israel never declared its borders? Could it be that they have never had any intention of settling with the land that have?


How are you going to react when you and your family live in a house and I live in one of the rooms, then it is made legal for everybody I know to move in? You get upset and I kill some of your family and run some out of town. Now you and your remaining family are relegated to the basement. Then I come down to the basement and start carving out spaces. You can't come out of the basement without checking with me. What are you going to do? You have a broom stick handle and I have guns. What are you going to do? You swing your broom stick in the dark, while I have night vision goggles and a laser beam and I shot someone in your family with every shot. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? Make peace? Negotiate? Wish me well? Tell your L? OR FIGHT TO THE DEATH?!?!
 
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Squirtle

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Were Palestinians living in the land? Were the Palestinians the overwhelming majority before it was made legal for every Jewish person on earth to move into that land? Were the Jewish people offered Uganda and refused the offer? Does previous theft of a land make you the permanent owner? And tell me, who has the 2nd or 3rd highest percentage of skin cancer victims in the world (after the Dutch of SOUTH AFRICA!!!)? Were Stern gang and Irgun terrorists? Who committed the 1st acts of terrorism in that land? Was this terrorism and murder a means to take their land? Tell me about the Koenig Memorandum which was a government document which described how they would systemically discriminate against the Palestinians to expel them from land? Who is ACTUALLY being wiped of of the map, right now? Why does Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter and Mandela equate this to an Apartheid state (2 of them are experts on Apartheid and Carter is an unafraid former President who made great efforts to fix this problem)?


How are you going to react when you and your family live in a house and I live in one of the rooms, then it is made legal for everybody I know to move in? You get upset and I kill some of your family and run some out of town. Now you and your remaining family are relegated to the basement. Then I come down to the basement and start carving out spaces. You can't come out of the basement without check with me. What are you going to do? You have a broom stick handle and I have a guns. What are you going to do? You swing your broom stick in the dark, while I have night vision googles and a laser beam and I shot someone in your family with every shot. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? Make peace? Negotiate? Wish me well? Tell your L? OR FIGHT TO THE DEATH?!?!
Not taking either side, but if you are willing to fight to the death by throwing rockets that hit random civilian targets, knowing your enemy has far superior technology don't complain when they do the same.
 

lini...

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Not taking either side, but if you are willing to fight to the death by throwing rockets that hit random civilian targets, knowing your enemy has far superior technology don't complain when they do the same.


Palestinians are complaining about their ethnic cleansing, not just random civilian targets. Their entire people have been targeted and victimized! And it seems like you have taken a side. The wrong one!

To bring up hypocrisy is quite ironic. While crying that the Palestinians want to wipe them off of the map, they are wiping the Palestinians off of the earth!
 

FAH1223

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Not taking either side, but if you are willing to fight to the death by throwing rockets that hit random civilian targets, knowing your enemy has far superior technology don't complain when they do the same.

Rocket fire is dumb, it doesn't work.

The unfortunate truth is Israel is getting away with murder (literally) with full diplomatic cover mainly from the US and others. (It is now illegal to hold pro-Palestine demonstrations in France). Second, this again neglects Israel’s role as the occupier. Israel ultimately is in control of everything between the river and sea. There is a siege in Gaza and people are desperate.
 

ill

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