The Martial Arts and Philosophy

[Blackking]

@ExodusNirvana @Blackking came across this article on Tan Tui and I was curious, yall ever learn a version with yours? 10 or 12 road?

http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/art_mancusotantui.htm

naw, but kicks are the same, as u know...

punches n stuff are similar expect we don't do any punches that aren't direct and str8. wingchun has similar principles except with more of a focus on being direct.

I guess what I mean is Practicing direct. Tantui is direct, but people like to master the moves then not know how to fight. We basically practice to fight and that's it.


I love this video though...


I like it, but I can't understand where the power is coming from with that structure.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

They provide a good foundation. I always tell people under me, if you practice your springing legs slow and repeatedly for hours, days, months, when it comes time to fight in the circle in class or outside on the street, all your basic technique will come out like water because your body's muscle memory will remember those little punches and kicks and low stances that you do during the forms.

yep, Tan Tui for me has always been less about application and more about cultivating body method. Gives you nice strong stables legs with all the low stances, and the directional changes really help out. builds waist twisting, hand to foot power, peng jin (ward off energy), spine health.

One of the first sequences i learned when i got into CMA was a 12 road tantui and then this; surprisingly good basic conditioning. And it bridges a lot of external and 'internal' ideas.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

naw, but kicks are the same, as u know...

punches n stuff are similar expect we don't do any punches that aren't direct and str8. wingchun has similar principles except with more of a focus on being direct.

I guess what I mean is Practicing direct. Tantui is direct, but people like to master the moves then not know how to fight. We basically practice to fight and that's it.

I didnt really learn any 'apps' from Tantui. Those long punches and big telegraphed shyt isnt meant to be used in application imo, more about building the right kind of foundation/body.

 

[Blackking]

I didnt really learn any 'apps' from Tantui. Those long punches and big telegraphed shyt isnt meant to be used in application imo, more about building the right kind of foundation/body.

shouldn't your muscle memory be based in actual moves....

what do the long punches and big circle punches teach you?

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

shouldn't your muscle memory be based in actual moves....

what do the long punches and big circle punches teach you?

IMO nothing. I see it as more of a calisthenics routine based upon a few body method goals rather than something that teaches you directly how to fight. You're not gonna learn how to fight from solo routines, you get that from sparring, which you transition into with limited sparring, drills, and two person sets.

 

[Blackking]

so is this guy considered a martial artist??

 

[Blackking]

he beat up a couple traditional MA guys

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

Most definitely a martial artist

 

[KyokushinKarateMan]

so is this guy considered a martial artist??

That depends on one's definition of martial arts, and these days, that definition seems to change depending upon who you ask.
This is my first time seeing this brother. He seems strong. Seems to have quick hands and power behind them, but then that's it.
I try to imagine him fighting in say, k-1 or Pride, not sure if he would fair as well as his highlight reel seems to suggest.
That being said, with the right training and more experience he could be another force to be reckoned with.
Reminds me of a slightly unpolished Quenton Rampage Jackson

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

Seems to have quick hands and power behind them, but then that's it.

His timing and reflexes are quality too, friend. I think he deserves a little more credit. You are right about him lacking in finesse and subtle techniques; but it seems to be working for him and he is a professional fighter

I think people gotta call him a martial artist no matter what you think of his technique or the MMA sport fighting arena; he puts in the work and does this for a living.

 

[KyokushinKarateMan]

His timing and reflexes are quality too, friend. I think he deserves a little more credit. You are right about him lacking in finesse and subtle techniques; but it seems to be working for him and he is a professional fighter

I think people gotta call him a martial artist no matter what you think of his technique or the MMA sport fighting arena; he puts in the work and does this for a living.

His timing and reflexes are impeccable indeed! He definitely deserves credit there too.
As for what he deserves to be called, well, that falls back to what I stated about depending upon who you ask.
For me personally, a person who trains hard to become a good all around fighter isn't automatically a 'martial artist'. A great fighter could consist of one who is an excellent boxer and wrestler combined, that wouldn't make them a martial artist, to me. Even if they added in the typical 10-15 hrs per week on the pads training Muay-Thai leg kicks, etc.

What I noticed he's lacking in aren't things that are subtle or of any finesse nature at all. Just to point out a few things briefly without starting some all out debate: his balance, footwork, defense all need work and he has very, very, bad habits. Habits that professional fighters who fight in a higher quality-of-competition arena, would quickly make him pay for.

It's a very intricate question you have raised, and I'm not sure if you realized that when it first came to mind- but it is one that is currently being highly debated in many traditional martial arts circles. It's centered around the debate of should the 'arts' in 'Martial Arts' be dropped.If you get a chance hit a few forums up and get a good read. shyt had me like

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

@KyokushinKarateka i agree with you on your evaluation of him, but I do believe that you deserve the appellation if you are training to reach any martial 'goal'. Even if he was a shytty yellow belt in some McDojo he would still be a martial artist if his spirit and time was in it.

I mean, there are shytty artists out there painting shytty pictures, but would you go to a showing of an artist you consider shytty and be like " you're not an artist"? you might just call him shytty and keep it moving

Some of the things you're noticing though are a side effect of trying to learn too many things at once. I personally believe it's better to excel at something, make it your 'base', and then add on 'supplemental' arts from there. I think that applies to MMA competition as well.

 

[KyokushinKarateMan]

@KyokushinKarateka i agree with you on your evaluation of him, but I do believe that you deserve the appellation if you are training to reach any martial 'goal'. Even if he was a shytty yellow belt in some McDojo he would still be a martial artist if his spirit and time was in it.

I mean, there are shytty artists out there painting shytty pictures, but would you go to a showing of an artist you consider shytty and be like " you're not an artist"? you might just call him shytty and keep it moving

Some of the things you're noticing though are a side effect of trying to learn too many things at once. I personally believe it's better to excel at something, make it your 'base', and then add on 'supplemental' arts from there. I think that applies to MMA competition as well.

And it is precisely that highlighted in bold that I use to categorize who is a 'martial artist' vs who is just a fighter.
If his background is from a traditional martial art, he is and will always be a martial artist. As you mentioned, even if he was just a middle of the road student in his dojo/gym he would still be a martial artist, but I say too that it only applies if it was an actual traditional martial art he was training in.

Lyota Machida is and always will be a martial artist (Shotokan karate) no matter how much success he achieves in the UFC. George St. Pierre is and will always be a martial artist (Kyokushin Karate) no matter how much success he achieves in the UFC. But I couldn't say that about Rashad Evans, who is just a wrestler who developed standup striking to supplement his base, no matter how much success he achieves in the UFC.

But that is not to say that I am neither right nor wrong. That whole 'what makes a martial artist' topic is such a broad issue, albeit always an interesting one!

Would you happen to know his background/base?

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

But I couldn't say that about Rashad Evans, who is just a wrestler who developed standup striking to supplement his base, no matter how much success he achieves in the UFC.

But that is not to say that I am neither right nor wrong. That whole 'what makes a martial artist' topic is such a broad issue, albeit always an interesting one!

Would you happen to know his background/base?

But wrestling is a 'traditional martial art'. It's the oldest form of systemized fighting known to man and has folk traditions in literally every great culture. Sumo in japan, shuai jiao in china, olympic wrestling in europe, etc etc.

It seems King Mo was also a wrestler, college.

 

[Blackking]

Just to point out a few things briefly without starting some all out debate: his balance, footwork, defense all need work and he has very, very, bad habits. Habits that professional fighters who fight in a higher quality-of-competition arena, would quickly make him pay for.

Natural ability and inner strength shouldn't be under estimated. Look at bruce lee... regardless of how people train.. it's difficult to get on his level. Also, look at some of the people this guy as fought who had a base in traditional MA.

if u watch his fights.. him not thinking makes him 2 sec in front of everyone... even the kungfu guy, even the muithai guy. His a world class wrestler... so those techniques always are underrated by traditional MA guys . Plus little things like his hip turning, his leg sliding back - you can tell his body just does them... all those body mechanics combined with his natural ability to pick muthafakers up and slam them = a great artist.