☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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I want to be clear here, because I think you're sliding past what I'm actually arguing and reacting instead to a composite of other people's takes in this thread. You keep invoking "some people" or "the broader conversation," but I'd rather you engage directly with what *I've* said. I'm not asking for pity for Democrats, and I'm not deflecting accountability for their failures. I'm saying that the GOP's structural authoritarianism isn't just background noise, it is the terrain, and failing to confront it honestly doesn't sharpen the fight within the Democratic Party, it dulls it.

You say naming the GOP's role can become a "harmful distraction" or "neuter action potential," but I'd argue the opposite. What actually neuters urgency is treating Republican power as a fixed natural force that we just have to work around, while delaying structural reform until Democrats are somehow "credible" enough to deserve the fight. That's the contradiction in your position. If the GOP is truly the existential threat you say it is, then we don't have the luxury of sequencing reform efforts like a to-do list. We have to press on *BOTH FRONTS* - demanding internal change while also naming and confronting the systemic GOP machinery that obstructs even the best efforts.

I'm not here to excuse the "controlled opposition" mode of leadership. I want Democrats to stop playing by rules the GOP long abandoned. But I also reject the idea that talking about Republican obstruction is what's killing momentum. What kills momentum is pretending the fight can be won by treating only one half of the equation. That's not a serious theory of change.

We agree that Democrats are the only lever we have. That's why I want them pushed harder *AND* smarter. But that push isn't weakened by naming what we're up against, it's strengthened by it. If we're serious, we can't look at this with only one eye opened.
I think you need to admit that pivoting on the issues I’ve highlighted since the election is why democrats are struggling. They’re hosting think tank meetings about how to talk to men because the party is run by social science majors who intellectualize literal gender theory.

We’re fukked on a core level and aren’t seen as serious people. Activists and their issues need to be addressed.

I maintain we’re going to lose in 2026.
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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I don't think your theory is horseshyt btw, I think it follows an internal logic and is drawing on historical events. I just disagree with it.

I don't think the capital class prefers liberalism to fascism, I think history shows us that it's more or less indifferent to the two ideologies because both are willing to give them a co-equal seat at the table of power. A fight between two populist visions - one left wing and one right wing - is one in which the left wing vision can win if they marshal the power of the people, without whom the capital class cannot operate. The capital class are not all-powerful. They need us more than we need them. But this understanding has to be taught and fostered. This is where class politics has to come in. Which is what I mean when I say the Democratic Party is failing the current moment.

So I guess I would amend your formula to be populist left + the masses will defeat fascist right + capital class.
Capital absolutely prefers liberalism because liberalism offers the freedom to experiment, pivot and engage with niche and dynamic environments.

You fear money which is why you’re more threatened by housing developers than you are even daring to change parking lot minimums or single stair zoning regulations.
 

King Kreole

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Wouldn’t you say the capital class is seeing that the populist right (MAGA Fascism) is bad for business? Tariffs, limitation of free trade, global talent drain through xenophobia, weaponization of the government towards private business if the business isn’t loyal to the government enough?

I think the capital class would much prefer free market liberalism.
The MAGA movement is too undisciplined and chaotic to fall into the neat ideological frameworks we're using here, but I would say the capital/industrialist class is still sees preference in the corrupt transactionalism of Trump than the limited constraints of Democratic Liberalism. I think their gambit is to control the weapon of Trump's tariffs and market-defining tools to their benefit. Tim Cook might be seeing the downside of it right now but Sam Altman and Larry Ellison are seeing the upside of it.

The issue with Democratic Party Liberalism is that it doesn't have any sense of class politics or historical analysis so they don't see the problem with letting the fox into the henhouse. So they seek to invite these oligarchs to the table ostensibly as junior partners but they always end up giving them controlling shares.
 

Outlaw

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The MAGA movement is too undisciplined and chaotic to fall into the neat ideological frameworks we're using here, but I would say the capital/industrialist class is still sees preference in the corrupt transactionalism of Trump than the limited constraints of Democratic Liberalism. I think their gambit is to control the weapon of Trump's tariffs and market-defining tools to their benefit. Tim Cook might be seeing the downside of it right now but Sam Altman and Larry Ellison are seeing the upside of it.

The issue with Democratic Party Liberalism is that it doesn't have any sense of class politics or historical analysis so they don't see the problem with letting the fox into the henhouse. So they seek to invite these oligarchs to the table ostensibly as junior partners but they always end up giving them controlling shares.
I think you’re right, I think the oligarchs may prefer fascism but I think the capital class (small business owners to single digit billionaires) who don’t get a seat at the table would prefer free market liberalism.

The more that I think about it, the more it makes sense that socialism would have to be born out of liberalism for it to be sustainable.

If Trump completely runs the country in the ground the idea of a more (government) planned economy will seem repulsive to the average voter. Trump failing with his b*stardization of populism is doing the left more harm than good IMO in the near future.

Trump is being so radical that I think by 2028 America will have “radical change” fatigue .

It may get so bad that free market ideas (government getting the hell out of your lives) will seem like a populist policy.


Trump will only get more emboldened as time goes by where he feels like he’ll be able to pick winners and losers off of sheer loyalty tests.

He’s already testing the waters now, when Trump gave that speech in front of Saudi Arabia he said “Where is Tim Cook?” And a few weeks later he’s targeting Apple with tariffs. I don’t see the capital class being able to tolerate this long term, they will band behind a liberal in 2028.
 

King Kreole

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I want to be clear here, because I think you're sliding past what I'm actually arguing and reacting instead to a composite of other people's takes in this thread. You keep invoking "some people" or "the broader conversation," but I'd rather you engage directly with what *I've* said. I'm not asking for pity for Democrats, and I'm not deflecting accountability for their failures. I'm saying that the GOP's structural authoritarianism isn't just background noise, it is the terrain, and failing to confront it honestly doesn't sharpen the fight within the Democratic Party, it dulls it.

You say naming the GOP's role can become a "harmful distraction" or "neuter action potential," but I'd argue the opposite. What actually neuters urgency is treating Republican power as a fixed natural force that we just have to work around, while delaying structural reform until Democrats are somehow "credible" enough to deserve the fight. That's the contradiction in your position. If the GOP is truly the existential threat you say it is, then we don't have the luxury of sequencing reform efforts like a to-do list. We have to press on *BOTH FRONTS* - demanding internal change while also naming and confronting the systemic GOP machinery that obstructs even the best efforts.

I'm not here to excuse the "controlled opposition" mode of leadership. I want Democrats to stop playing by rules the GOP long abandoned. But I also reject the idea that talking about Republican obstruction is what's killing momentum. What kills momentum is pretending the fight can be won by treating only one half of the equation. That's not a serious theory of change.

We agree that Democrats are the only lever we have. That's why I want them pushed harder *AND* smarter. But that push isn't weakened by naming what we're up against, it's strengthened by it. If we're serious, we can't look at this with only one eye opened.
There was a broader conversation taking place before you joined in, but fair request, I'll winnow my post to your direct points. I believe we are primarily in agreement, and your positions are much more closely aligned to my own positions than the other posters I've been debating with. I agree that the GOP's structural authoritarianism isn't just background noise, and we shouldn't fail to confront it honestly. We both agree that we have to press on both fronts, but where I think we may disagree is what exact role or benefit the invocation of Republican malevolence has in the context of leftist critiques of the Democratic Party's failure to stand up for, say, pro-Palestine activists or immigration rights. Because the people dapping your posts are saying it should be the primary response, which is problematic in my opinion, and indicative of ulterior motives. You've already shown a willingness to be much more critical of the Democratic Party than those people, so I'm not going to impugn your motives, but that's the context of this broader discussion.

For the record, my position isn't that simply naming the GOP's role can be a harmful distraction (I in fact think it's a necessity for any progressive development), my position is that diverting attention from reforming the Democratic Party towards impotently (even if accurately) critiquing the GOP can be a harmful distraction. The past 8 years have been filled with this; geriatric Do-Nothing Democrats calling Donald Trump a big dumb orange insurrectionist meanie instead of whipping their own party into shape. The result was a shrinking Democratic electorate and the re-election of Trump. I believe if Democrats had spent those years taking criticisms seriously and building their strength instead of deflecting all criticisms towards Trump, we might not be in this position.

I don't believe talking about Republican obstruction is what's killing momentum, I believe it's the Democratic Party not being a credible enough entity to make that argument effectively because they refuse to get their own house in order. To put it more simply, Nancy Pelosi cannot be the messenger to deliver anti-oligarchy messaging against Trump while palling around with her own set of oligarchs, Hakeem Jeffries cannot be the messenger to defend Palestinian rights activists against Trump while sucking off AIPAC, Chuck Schumer cannot be the messenger to defend state institutions while voting for the GOP funding bill. And any diversion of those criticisms by accurately pointing out how shytty Trump is would be relatively ineffectual because Trump's shyttiness is a known quantity and there's no strong countervailing message because the messengers are weak. This isn't treating only one half of the equation, it's prioritizing which side of the equation needs to be addressed first. You frame this as delaying structural reform until the Democrats are credible enough to deserve the fight, but I think it's rather that the Democrats inability to enact structural reform stems from their lack of credibility. Yes, the GOP is an existential threat, which is precisely why we need to whip the Democrats into shape immediately.
 

King Kreole

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Capital absolutely prefers liberalism because liberalism offers the freedom to experiment, pivot and engage with niche and dynamic environments.
:dead: guy came here right out of a Brookings Institute conversation with David Brooks and Thomas Friedman

You fear money which is why you’re more threatened by housing developers than you are even daring to change parking lot minimums or single stair zoning regulations.
the-office-steve-carell.gif
 

FAH1223

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is exactly what we would see if the shoe were on the other foot

it's time for the US and the rest of the world to move on, if it were up to me the US wouldn't have anything to do with the entire rotten region.

Aren't you tired of watching them trying to wipe each other out in these cycles of violence?

Hamas and other groups aren't interested in coexisting that much is clear, they want total conquest through war, and this what we end up with hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and displaced.

I don't take pleasure in any of this. In a perfect world they could live together and there wouldn't be countries.





 

FAH1223

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is exactly what we would see if the shoe were on the other foot

it's time for the US and the rest of the world to move on, if it were up to me the US wouldn't have anything to do with the entire rotten region.

Aren't you tired of watching them trying to wipe each other out in these cycles of violence?

Hamas and other groups aren't interested in coexisting that much is clear, they want total conquest through war, and this what we end up with hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and displaced.

I don't take pleasure in any of this. In a perfect world they could live together and there wouldn't be countries.

 
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