This will be my last Elgin Baylor vid, I swear

[gho3st]

Upon coaches request... FG% were on average, a bit lower back then vs what we are used to seeing today - and his FGA fits just fine given his talent, the amount of posessions exchanged during games, and the talent around him. To put it simply, Elgin wasn't really percieved as a "shot jacker" back then so why should we suddenly consider him one now? Because of basketball reference, our hollinger/PER-era fixation on stats and how the style of the game is played today? I think it's unfair to try and conclude he was a shot jacker 50 years later

nobody mentioned PER or advanced stats.


I just thought he shot a terrible percentage. Not even the average 45% from the field for a perimeter player.

 

[dantheman9758]

nobody mentioned PER or advanced stats.

I just thought he shot a terrible percentage. Not even the average 45% from the field for a perimeter player.

The game is slightly different now vs then - And I mentioned PER/Hollinger because that's one of countless subtle reasons why. Don't compare his fg% to perimiter players today, instead look at the fg%'s of players from his era. Nate Thurmond and Bill Russell, two of the top 3 centers of the 60's routinely shot no better than the mid .40's. Even Wilt shot below .500 his first season. It's all about style of play, rules, role on the team, philosphy of play etc. You can not compare their fg%'s directly with what we considere "average" today without a basic understanding of how the game has changed over time, it's no different than comparing their rebounding volumes straight up with rebounding volumes today. If you think Baylor would be shooting crummy sub .45% today do you also think he'd be grabbing 19 rebounds a game today too?

 

[gho3st]

The game is totally different now vs then - And I mentioned PER/Hollinger because that's one of countless reasons why. Don't compare his fg% to perimiter players today, instead look at the fg%'s of players from his era. Nate Thurmond and Bill Russell, two of the top 3 centers of the 60's shot in the .40's. Even Wilt shot below .500 his first season. It's all about style of play, rules, etc. You can not compare their fg%'s directly with what we considere "average" today without a basic understanding of how the game has changed over time, it's no different than comparing their rebounding volumes straight up with rebounding volumes today. If you think Baylor would be shooting sub .45% today do you also think he'd be grabbing 19 rebounds a game today too?

again BIll Russell was just freakishly good defensively. his offense was , only Celtics fans would tell you different.
Kareem and Wilt were better players than Russell but that's a discussion for another day

on Russell: Did you know he only made all NBA-1st team 4 times???

 

[RedBull]

lets be real here. Elgin Baylor was great but his ass jacked up A LOT OF SHOTS!!!!

So? They went in.

 

[dantheman9758]

again BIll Russell was just freakishly good defensively. his offense was , only Celtics fans would tell you different.
Kareem and Wilt were better players than Russell but that's a discussion for another day

on Russell: Did you know he only made all NBA-1st team 4 times???

Basketball reference and wikipedia will only take you so far when trying to understand NBA history and how good players were. Like I said, if your going to take the stance of direct stat analysis and slight Baylor on his fg% than you best stay on that side of the fence and also be giving him the same amount of respect for averaging 19rpg.

"Shot jacker"? Fine directly comparing his fg% and fga with a modern players without context paints him as a shot jacker. At the same time his rebounding stats paint a rebounding GOD that is better even than Dennis Rodman.

 

[gho3st]

Basketball reference and wikipedia will only take you so far when trying to understand NBA history and how good players were. Like I said, if your going to take the stance of direct stat analysis and slight Baylor on his fg% than you best stay on that side of the fence and also be giving him the same amount of respect for averaging 19rpg.

"Shot jacker"? Fine directly comparing his fg% and fga with a modern players without context paints him as a shot jacker. At the same time his rebounding stats paint a rebounding GOD that is better even than Dennis Rodman.

again with the straw man fallacy. Since i wasn't there and didn't see it for myself(same shyt with you), i'm not going to act like a bunch of you niccas and overrate dudes after they done playing like the media has you programmed to.

whenever a dude makes a point you immediately call him stat head or basketball-reference geek. I wasn't there, you weren't there... the only arguments we have are the numbers, the awards and comparison to other players of that time and present.

 

[dantheman9758]

again with the straw man fallacy. Since i wasn't there and didn't see it for myself(same shyt with you), i'm not going to act like a bunch of you niccas and overrate dudes after they done playing like the media has you programmed to.

whenever a dude makes a point you immediately call him stat head or basketball-reference geek. I wasn't there, you weren't there... the only arguments we have are the numbers, the awards and comparison to other players of that time and present.

I have footage, lots of footage. And a passion to watch and study the footage - repeatedly. I spend hours every day during downtime at my slow job looking at old films, reading old archived newspapers for game recaps and sports articles, listening to testimonials, interviews, documentaries, games, etc and then I go home and work on making mixes with all the footage I comb through. And I've been doing this for years. I'm passionate about basketball history. I research rule changes, philosophies of play, I watch old 50's NCAA games and films about defensive and offensive strategies when modern game tactics like triangle offenses were first being developed. I even watch documentaries on the Olympics from the 50's and 60's just in the hopes of catching glimpses of those Olympic teams. And you want to sit here and call Elgin a "shot jacker" - and act like we both only have formed our opinions from the same resources.

Maybe your just as passionate about the game as I am. But forgive me for not finding that likely - I'm a basketball addict, perhaps unhealthily so - most people I assume, aren't. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But calling Baylor a shot jacker simply seems like a 'glance at his stats on basketball reference' conclusion because like I said, he was never considered a shot jacker in his own time, and his fg% is completley normal for a forward from his era.

 

[#1 pick]

dan, you got film of Rick Berry?

 

[dantheman9758]

dan, you got film of Rick Berry?

Yah, lots, none in mix form yet tho. I collected a bunch of his footage this summer prepping for one in the future though. What are you looking to see?