Thomas Sowell: Welfare makes excuses for things that are wrong.

Is Thomas Sowell right about Welfare?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 32.4%
  • No

    Votes: 12 35.3%
  • Partially right

    Votes: 11 32.4%

  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .

Robbie3000

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I don't care about righting wrongs of the past, I care about strategies to overcome current hurdles.
That's the difference in our ideals, you wants to force whites to own up to their wrongs and right them because you think that is needed for blacks to advance.
I think blacks can advance with white people being an afterthought if we get our house together first.

Because I think racism is natural and never going away, I don't expect whites to be compassionate and embracing of blacks, I just want blacks to be so solid that we can hurdle, counter, and dismantle any attacks on us.
Rather than beg whites to please treat us better.

There is a reason a lot of black nationalist found themselves coming to agreement with white nationalist on certain things, I guess they were c00ns too.

Nobody is advocating begging whites. But we need to be clear on the origins of what ails our society and people like Thomas Sowell does nothing but vilify black people and absolve whites in regards to what happened. If your interests are really about black progress, there are a number of intellectuals that you can cite that don't make a living bashing black people for the amusement of white racist fascists. But that's just me.
 

Robbie3000

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y'all dudes have a lot more patience than me I would have stopped taking dude seriously after like my third response these TLR dudes be on some off the wall shyt in these debates :russ:

You're right. I have a headache after going back and forth with these TLR nikkas. Definitely not the sharpest tools in the The-Coli shed.
 

Barnett114

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Hogwash. He reduces problems that we see in the black community to family structure issues caused by government policies that he doesn't agree with, while simultaneously absolving the dominant society of any wrongdoing. That's just lazy.

Yeah there is a bigger ratio of black people on welfare. But guess what? There are more poor black people in the country. Why are there more poor blacks in the country? because up until the 1960s, blacks couldn't even attend state schools that they were paying for in state taxes, much less enjoy the dignity of sitting at a counter and ordering a meal.

Ya'll act like the American middle class was puffed out of thin air. The American middle class was a deliberate construct of the United States Federal government. Specific policies were put in place to help create the middle class, but these policies excluded blacks. The GI bill is the best example, but just as you would expect in 1940s America, black GIs were denied the chance to participate in these programs. In much the same way blacks were largely excluded from from good manufacturing jobs in the northeast and midwest. Let's not forget a large portion of Americans in cities were living in slums until after World War 2 and the construction of Suburbs and the US Highways. But again, blacks were excluded from moving to these neighborhoods.

Buy yeah let's just reduce it to family structure and welfare.

The only reason welfare is almost a four letter word in America is because there is a higher ratio of black people on welfare than whites. This is a cause of great heartache and resentment among white conservatives and racists. I guarantee you if there was a negligible number of black people in America, the US welfare state would be just a robust as that of western Europe. Few people know, but Truman was willing to introduce universal healthcare back in the 40s, but the southern states blocked it because it meant they would have to integrate their hospitals - even though the South would have reaped the biggest benefit of any region.


:salute:
 

ignorethis

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Nobody is advocating begging whites. But we need to be clear on the origins of what ails our society and people like Thomas Sowell does nothing but vilify black people and absolve whites in regards to what happened. If your interests are really about black progress, there are a number of intellectuals that you can cite that don't make a living bashing black people for the amusement of white racist fascists. But that's just me.
I never read anything from him bashing or vilifying blacks, he writes all his work on welfare from the perspective of "welfare hurts blacks and the poor, cut it" not "blacks and poors are lazy shyts, cut welfare and make them work"

You guys keep saying this when it isn't true.

I was a Thomas Sowell basher at one point, but I really didn't know any of his ideas, I just knew he looked like a dweeb and I kinda identified as a liberal. It was watching some of his debates when he was younger and see how passionate and angry he got on things like welfare and black education that made me think "This dude seems like he really cares about the advancement of black people, his ideas my be wrong but it seems like he really believes that they're right and he's done the research to prove it".

Then I went and actually read some of his work and found some things I agreed with, there are a lot of things I don't agree with him on. I feel like often likes to pretend or really believes that since he's experience little racism that all other black have to be exaggerating, he does pander to lowbrow white readers when he writes for certain publications, I read some stuff like that and remember that I don't really like him as a person, but I agree with some of his ideas.


It's kinda how Cosby can dedicate his whole early life to helping blacks, working harder to help blacks than most people living today, but the second he says something that sound disparaging to blacks after years of real world work and experience, blacks turn on him and he becomes an uncle tom c00n.
I'm suprised Oprah survived saying black-American students didn't deserve for her to build them a school because they don't care about education enough

http://www.creators.com/opinion/rol...ions-with-inner-city-kids-school-systems.html
Move over, Bill Cosby, you've got some company.

Oprah Winfrey, who made headlines this week with the opening of her $40 million, all-girls leadership academy in South Africa, is none too happy with how inner-city American kids take for granted an education.

In an interview with Newsweek's Allison Samuels, the billionaire media mogul said she has given millions of dollars to American schools, but has become disenchanted with the materialistic attitude among children.

"Say what you will about the American educational system — it does work," she told Newsweek. "If you are a child in the United States, you can get an education."

She added: "I became so frustrated with visiting inner-city schools that I just stopped going. The sense that you need to learn just isn't there. If you ask the kids what they want or need, they will say an iPod or some sneakers. In South Africa, they don't ask for money or toys. They ask for uniforms so they can go to school."

While some focused on the good deed of her opening a school to train the next generation of female leaders in South Africa, others focused on these statements, angry that a women who grew up poor in Mississippi would be so dismissive and callous in her critique of inner-city children.

My e-mail box blew up with folks wondering why she didn't open a similar school on the South Side of Chicago. Others called her an elitist slob who has forgotten where she has come from. Yet a few others were flat out ticked off by her painting the mindset of inner-city kids with a broad brush.

While I understand this position, and am fully aware of the serious shortcomings of the American education system — especially when you note that many suburban schools, because of high property taxes, look like college campuses, and those attended by mostly black and Hispanic children are falling apart — Oprah is dead-on in her assessment.
 
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Mission249

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Humans are rational. They maximize their potential and opportunities when presented. Rational choice theory. You're going to want more rather than less. Its not rational for to purposely avoid a path that would lead to a nice stable career, with appealing earning potential, for a life of existing on welfare and basically the bottom of the barrel. With your theories, you guys continue to box yourself into the realm of extreme white supremacy --- sad thing is at least most racists will at least admit to it, and yet you guys lie to yourselves.
This is some of the same "reasoning" people used when opposing Civil Rights: "We don't need legislation to force us to allow blacks into our stores! We're business owners. We'll all naturally let anyone with money in! We're rational, business owners!"
 

EndDomination

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I don't think its outlandish to say we respected ourselves more back then :ehh:
It is outlandish to think that
Welcome to White Supremacist education. We didn't "respect" ourselves more "back then."
"Respect" is an arbitrary term. Let's see how Black people were in the 1900-1950s: used like lab rats for tests on everything from disease to drugs, killed like dogs by the government, as well as White society, a generation of abused men, women and children, a huge amount of people with PTSD from the incredibly amount of violence and abuse they endured, a massive population of people in dirt-poor conditions, drug addiction and alcohol addiction, almost no opportunity for advancement economically, and that was the case for men, women were treated like second class citizens already, and Black women were placed on the absolute bottom of that totem pole. They started fighting back for their rights and were killed. They went off to war to protect these "rights" and came home to the same conditions. They integated schools and were spit on.

Just because you've been shown a bunch of movies and stories about strong church-people in books and movies, standing against White supremacy and pushing against the government to allow more legislation for the advancement of Black people, warm inviting homes with 12 kids and chestnuts and music, doesn't mean that's the reality. Sure there was that element, but that sure as hell doesn't constitute some ridiculous ideal of "the older generations of Black people had more respect for themselves." There were more people who refused welfare out of "pride" but that pride turned out to simply be ignorance.
 

Jhoon

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It is outlandish to think that
Welcome to White Supremacist education. We didn't "respect" ourselves more "back then."
"Respect" is an arbitrary term. Let's see how Black people were in the 1900-1950s: used like lab rats for tests on everything from disease to drugs, killed like dogs by the government, as well as White society, a generation of abused men, women and children, a huge amount of people with PTSD from the incredibly amount of violence and abuse they endured, a massive population of people in dirt-poor conditions, drug addiction and alcohol addiction, almost no opportunity for advancement economically, and that was the case for men, women were treated like second class citizens already, and Black women were placed on the absolute bottom of that totem pole. They started fighting back for their rights and were killed. They went off to war to protect these "rights" and came home to the same conditions. They integated schools and were spit on.

Just because you've been shown a bunch of movies and stories about strong church-people in books and movies, standing against White supremacy and pushing against the government to allow more legislation for the advancement of Black people, warm inviting homes with 12 kids and chestnuts and music, doesn't mean that's the reality. Sure there was that element, but that sure as hell doesn't constitute some ridiculous ideal of "the older generations of Black people had more respect for themselves." There were more people who refused welfare out of "pride" but that pride turned out to simply be ignorance.
Folks like that are beyond helping. After slavery, black families had decency. The one clown said black families were respected.

This is why you treat them like shyt and leave it at that. They relish in that sort of human interaction. They are who they are. Nothing more than the musings of bootlickers, yearning for the good ole days of jim crowe comraderie.
 

Opus

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Blacks are on welfare more because we're poorer, we're poorer our progress was been stunted by government policy decades ago. That's accept.
The problems is even after those policies were removed and replaced with policies benefiting blacks, we have made very little progress in closing gaps between us and whites.

The only groups of blacks that has made progress in closing the racial gaps are married and educated black families and their children
https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/families/

If you looked at the stats and saw that "hey, blacks that are married are doing way better other blacks, hell and they do really good when they have an education, hell even their children achieve and accomplished more" what you concluded?
Are those blacks not descendants and victims of the same racist policies that every other black endured? He just concluded if blacks have a traditional

Like I said and posted links, Thomas Sowell has never attacked blacks as a whole, he has attacked the so called "black leadership", but most of the people on this forum would agree with him on that. A lot of this work is on black students and our failures as adults and government to them, and the ability that black students have to achieve with less than their peers, he never even attacks the behavior of black students overall when most of us that have gone to a black school know that student behavior is a issue as well. He attacks liberals for closing down minority charter schools that have high achievement rates, because they don't agree with charter schools; he attacks liberals because he feels they're essentially replacing the black father with welfare.

But he does not ATTACK blacks!
I never read anything from him bashing or vilifying blacks, he writes all his work on welfare from the perspective of "welfare hurts blacks and the poor, cut it" not "blacks and poors are lazy shyts, cut welfare and make them work"

You guys keep saying this when it isn't true.

I was a Thomas Sowell basher at one point, but I really didn't know any of his ideas, I just knew he looked like a dweeb and I kinda identified as a liberal. It was watching some of his debates when he was younger and see how passionate and angry he got on things like welfare and black education that made me think "This dude seems like he really cares about the advancement of black people, his ideas my be wrong but it seems like he really believes that they're right and he's done the research to prove it".

Then I went and actually read some of his work and found some things I agreed with, there are a lot of things I don't agree with him on. I feel like often likes to pretend or really believes that since he's experience little racism that all other black have to be exaggerating, he does pander to lowbrow white readers when he writes for certain publications, I read some stuff like that and remember that I don't really like him as a person, but I agree with some of his ideas.


It's kinda how Cosby can dedicate his whole early life to helping blacks, working harder to help blacks than most people living today, but the second he says something that sound disparaging to blacks after years of real world work and experience, blacks turn on him and he becomes an uncle tom c00n.
I'm suprised Oprah survived saying black-American students didn't deserve for her to build them a school because they don't care about education enough

http://www.creators.com/opinion/rol...ions-with-inner-city-kids-school-systems.html


The people that survived those transgressions against blacks only did so because they are c00ns that pander to whites. Cosby isn't and he didn't survive
 

ignorethis

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I'm just gunna leave this right here

http://tinyurl.com/l9uwlv6

And when you listen to this keep in mind this was said by a 21 year old
lol that's not good that's embarrassing.
I understood the world was more complicated than that when I was 16, he espousing a child's view on socialism.

This doesn't have anything to do with arguing Sowell's ideas.

Lol nikka don't take stats on teens that have committed a few crimes, the goal is to be at the point where the amount of kids that commit crimes is way smaller.

And not to mention that that article doesn't have references and states that it goes by "self-reported crimes" of the study. Weren't you the same dude harping about empirical data? Bad statistics are bad statistics whether or not you think they support your argument.
 
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