Too poor for pop culture

[DEAD7]

everything i listed was legal prior to regulation. It stands to reason that without regulation we'd go back to the way things were before people were forced to change.
As proof of this let's look to what companies like Walmart, Polo, Tommy Hill, etc, etc do when they go overseas. They purposefully went to places were they could exploit workers as cost effectively as possible.

You're saying that we're more...civilized...? If we are it's BECAUSE of regulation, not in spite of it.

I see the jump to no regulation is unavoidable, so lets assume no regulation(even though I stated minimum regulation).
It sounds like you are conflating freeing the market with disbanding law enforcement and abandoning the rule of law, and despite its popularity this narrative just isnt the case.
As for your example, I'm lost. Are you giving me examples of what is going on now, as a possible problem without regulation????



You really just love the system don't you? If the situation was reversed and i was trying to sell you the system we have now, could you imagine how impossible that would be, and how crazy i would sound ...

 

[Brown_Pride]

I see the jump to no regulation is unavoidable, so lets assume no regulation(even though I stated minimum regulation).
It sounds like you are conflating freeing the market with disbanding law enforcement and abandoning the rule of law, and despite its popularity this narrative just isnt the case.
As for your example, I'm lost. Are you giving me examples of what is going on now, as a possible problem without regulation????


You really just love the system don't you? If the situation was reversed and i was trying to sell you the system we have now, could you imagine how impossible that would be, and how crazy i would sound ...

Well that's why i asked for a clearer definition of what you want. If you don't like regulation it stands to reason you don't like any regulation

I was giving you examples of what "the market" tends to do and gravitate towards as evidence of what it would do and gravitate towards.

So again, to better define what you're proposing please propose or define what you mean by "minimum regulation".

Oh and I wasn't even talking about disbanding law enforcement. Again, you should read some history. The things i said WERE LEGAL. We had law enforcement circa 1900's. Just the laws/regulations were very "free market"/business favorable.

 

[DEAD7]

So again, to better define what you're proposing please propose or define what you mean by "minimum regulation".

Fair.

Laws, especially those that comprise the criminal system, are prohibitions, bans on certain actions such as murder, robbery, assault, kidnapping, fraud and so forth. Regulations set certain standards for how the conduct must be carried out. Government regulations do just what they say, regulate — manipulate, regiment, nudge and so forth — mostly conduct that is peaceful, non-invasive, and non-aggressive, although sometimes quite risky.

When I say free up the market I mean drastically reducing or completely eliminating the regulations in place. Not removing the rule of law.


Regulations, motivated by good intentions have become a tool for economic oppression IMO, and many of the fears people have of removing them, are actually happening now with them...

 

[ltheghost]

I got cousins and relatives like this, they are either in public housing or one step (or arrest) away from it. My cousin was telling me you could vote for President on the Internet a week ago...

Cousin: Hey man, you know you could vote for President from the computer?
Me: Who told you that bullshyt?

Cousin: I see here you can vote in a poll on abc.com

Me: That's probably for job performance or something. You not actually voting for President and the election is months away from now.

Cousin: Man nikka you lyin, I'll looking right at this shyt!

Me: Then just vote then. What did it say after you clicked it.

Cousin: Man, I'm not voting, it doesn't mean shyt anyway.

Me:

It's some alternative reality shyt talking to him.

 

[Brown_Pride]

Fair.

Laws, especially those that comprise the criminal system, are prohibitions, bans on certain actions such as murder, robbery, assault, kidnapping, fraud and so forth. Regulations set certain standards for how the conduct must be carried out. Government regulations do just what they say, regulate — manipulate, regiment, nudge and so forth — mostly conduct that is peaceful, non-invasive, and non-aggressive, although sometimes quite risky.

When I say free up the market I mean drastically reducing or completely eliminating the regulations in place. Not removing the rule of law.

Regulations, motivated by good intentions have become a tool for economic oppression IMO, and many of the fears people have of removing them, are actually happening now with them...

I agree with the underlined, we've staved off some things by creating regulations, but ultimately the very nature of capitalism and competition requires that companies attempt to find loopholes and such to gain a competative edge. This is the danger that you're not seeing.

The regulations we have now are b*stardized ideas contorted by the very groups they are supposed to be regulating. This is like letting prisoners set the rules in the prison, it makes not sense...but that is the natural progression of capitalism...it has to be.

Make money, get power, use power to make more money, to get more power to make more money to get more power to make more money....

My point still stands on the laws vs regulation.

The following are regulations:
Child labor (16 is an arbitrary age)
Minimum Wage
Work hours
etc, etc.

Which of these regulations would you remove?

 

[DEAD7]

My point still stands on the laws vs regulation.

The following are regulations:
Child labor (16 is an arbitrary age)
Minimum Wage
Work hours
etc, etc.

Which of these regulations would you remove?

All of them. As long as they are not being forced.

If a 14 year old wants to work, and his parents are ok with it, govt. shouldnt prevent that. I'd also argue that allowing children to work is a better alternative to what they are doing now in the streets.

Min wage isnt needed. Countless systems around the world prove this, including socialist ones which liberals love. How the left can surgically remove a nations healthcare(and compare ti to ours), and dismiss the rest of their economy is beyond me.

Work hours If I want to work three 15hr days a week I cant because of regulations, if I want to skip my lunch regulation want let me(at least in CA.) If I want... actually nevermind you get the point im sure, the regulations hinder as much as they help, and the benefit of removing them, outweighs the potential drawbacks IMHO.

There seems to be this belief that we will go back to 8yr old children in factories and minorities in chains without regulations... its insane.

 

[Brown_Pride]

All of them. As long as they are not being forced.

If a 14 year old wants to work, and his parents are ok with it, govt. shouldnt prevent that. I'd also argue that allowing children to work is a better alternative to what they are doing now in the streets.

Min wage isnt needed. Countless systems around the world prove this, including socialist ones which liberals love. How the left can surgically remove a nations healthcare(and compare ti to ours), and dismiss the rest of their economy is beyond me.

Work hours If I want to work three 15hr days a week I cant because of regulations, if I want to skip my lunch regulation want let me(at least in CA.) If I want... actually nevermind you get the point im sure, the regulations hinder as much as they help, and the benefit of removing them, outweighs the potential drawbacks IMHO.

There seems to be this belief that we will go back to 8yr old children in factories and minorities in chains without regulations... its insane.

I'll say again this isn't a matter of regulation being broken, or capitalism being wrong, it's a matter of both being tainted by corporatism. I'll say again; this is like getting a watch, smashing it and then declaring that watches are no good for telling time and then pointing to the smashed watch as evidence.

What would stop us from having 8 year olds in factories? What stops 8 year olds from being in factories in other countries?

The idea was that kids should go to school so they could be more. The problem is schools are failing.

Your utopian free market wonderland flies in the face of history, common sense and humanity.

 

[DEAD7]

I'll say again this isn't a matter of regulation being broken, or capitalism being wrong, it's a matter of both being tainted by corporatism. I'll say again; this is like getting a watch, smashing it and then declaring that watches are no good for telling time and then pointing to the smashed watch as evidence.

What would stop us from having 8 year olds in factories? What stops 8 year olds from being in factories in other countries?

The idea was that kids should go to school so they could be more. The problem is schools are failing.

Your utopian free market wonderland flies in the face of history, common sense and humanity.

If 8yr olds have to work there are other issues, and I think that talking point is presented incorrectly all the time. If children overseas have no better option than to work in factories to eat, tell me how taking that away helps them?

... and freeing up the market isnt anywhere near utopian, its just a lot better than what we have now, and no one ever states how it would be worse than what we have now, they just jump to how bad things were when they believe we had a "free market".

Do you ever notice the pattern in your post? regulations are failing(govt fail), corrupt politicians (govt. fail), corporatism (govt fail), schools are failing (govt. fail)... yet you defend govt as though its been good to you... and you hold alternatives to a standard that the system you defend could never meet.

 

[Brown_Pride]

If 8yr olds have to work there are other issues, and I think that talking point is presented incorrectly all the time. If children overseas have no better option than to work in factories to eat, tell me how taking that away helps them?

... and freeing up the market isnt anywhere near utopian, its just a lot better than what we have now, and no one ever states how it would be worse than what we have now, they just jump to how bad things were when they believe we had a "free market".

Do you ever notice the pattern in your post? regulations are failing(govt fail), corrupt politicians (govt. fail), corporatism (govt fail), schools are failing (govt. fail)... yet you defend govt as though its been good to you... and you hold alternatives to a standard that the system you defend could never meet.

I'm defending the idea of a good government, i've said time and again we don't have a good government.
More and more i'm consigned to the idea that all systems fail for the same reason, corruption. Your system and my system will both fail for the same reasons. Given the current system my point has been corporatism/corruption has screwed an otherwise sustainable system up.

 

[DEAD7]

I'm defending the idea of a good government, i've said time and again we don't have a good government.
More and more i'm consigned to the idea that all systems fail for the same reason, corruption. Your system and my system will both fail for the same reasons. Given the current system my point has been corporatism/corruption has screwed an otherwise sustainable system up.

So if we have a corrupt govt., should we be expanding it and increasing its power?

... and has it ever occurred to you that maybe if left small maybe this corruption could be 'managed'(better managed)?

 

[Brown_Pride]

So if we have a corrupt govt., should we be expanding it and increasing its power?

... and has it ever occurred to you that maybe if left small maybe this corruption could be 'managed'(better managed)?

Corporations are destructive and care little about humanity outside of how to make money off of it should we be asking them to bail us out of this by giving them more power? Does the cow gain by granting power to the butcher?

Do you jump out of the sinking ship into the ocean or do you try to fix the ship by burning the sail?

If left small would it have been able to do the things it has, accomplish the things it has. There was a time when america was great, that time has passed into being slightly better in some areas and worse in others, part of that passing is a result of corporate corruption...or better yet corruption through power via a monetary vehicle (because historically the same shyt has happened and the driving cause was corruption fueld by the desire to make more money, which again results in more power, more money, more power, more money...we'll call it BP's Circle Jerk Theory of Economics

 

[DEAD7]

Corporations are destructive and care little about humanity outside of how to make money off of it should we be asking them to bail us out of this by giving them more power? Does the cow gain by granting power to the butcher?

Do you jump out of the sinking ship into the ocean or do you try to fix the ship by burning the sail?

If left small would it have been able to do the things it has, accomplish the things it has. There was a time when america was great, that time has passed into being slightly better in some areas and worse in others, part of that passing is a result of corporate corruption...or better yet corruption through power via a monetary vehicle (because historically the same shyt has happened and the driving cause was corruption fueld by the desire to make more money, which again results in more power, more money, more power, more money...we'll call it BP's Circle Jerk Theory of Economics

So you contend that govt.s accomplishments outweigh its failures... We will have to agree to disagree on that. I find big govt. to be in no shape or form, worth the cost.
This isn't to say it hasn't done good things, great things even, I just assess the cost to be(or have been) too high.

The 'free from govt. corporation boogeymen' isn't real, this "power" is nonexistent without the state which necessarily has a monopoly on power & force... and even if we accepted it as truth, it would still be better than the warfare-welfare state we have now. Especially for minorities.


As for your analogy. Govt. is currently the butcher, and giving him more power is exactly what you suggest

 

[Brown_Pride]

So you contend that govt.s accomplishments outweigh its failures... We will have to agree to disagree on that. I find big govt. to be in no shape or form, worth the cost.
This isn't to say it hasn't done good things, great things even, I just assess the cost to be(or have been) too high.

The 'free from govt. corporation boogeymen' isn't real, this "power" is nonexistent without the state which necessarily has a monopoly on power & force... and even if we accepted it as truth, it would still be better than the warfare-welfare state we have now. Especially for minorities.

As for your analogy. Govt. is currently the butcher, and giving him more power is exactly what you suggest

I will say we're quickly approaching the point were the good will no longer out weight the bad. I'll also say that government IS the butcher, or rather the cow milker turned butcher. Government as I believe it was planned was to be symbiotic relationship, like someone getting milk from a cow. You feed the cow, you get milk to feed yourself, you take care of the cow, protect it, make sure wolves don't come and eat it, etc, etc. Government is now starting to look at the cow and want steak.

The free from government boogie man IS real, we see it throughout history, POWER uses whatever vehicle is available. Religion, monarchies, democracies, socialist and fascist states what have they all had in common? People, typically with money, want more power to get more money to then get more power enter...BP's Circle Jerk Theory of Economics

 

[DEAD7]

POWER uses whatever vehicle is available. Religion, monarchies, democracies, socialist and fascist states what have they all had in common? People, typically with money, want more power to get more money to then get more power enter...BP's Circle Jerk Theory of Economics

This is an argument for small, limited govt.

A small govt. that protects the minority, individual freedom, property rights, and maintains national defense is what we should have. When you grow govt. and extend its reach, the power becomes an issue. Limited power to do good, is limited power to do harm, and vice versa.
...and the comparison between market power and govt. power is . Wal-mart isnt fining people for not purchasing their product.




Lets keep in mind the freeing up of the market and/or shrinking of govt. isnt a fix, its an improvement. I'm not saying it will solve anything, be a utopia, or lead us to the promised land.
I'm saying it is vastly superior to what we have now, and the best hope minorities have of attaining wealth.

 

[Brown_Pride]

This is an argument for small, limited govt.

A small govt. that protects the minority, individual freedom, property rights, and maintains national defense is what we should have. When you grow govt. and extend its reach, the power becomes an issue. Limited power to do good, is limited power to do harm, and vice versa.
...and the comparison between market power and govt. power is . Wal-mart isnt fining people for not purchasing their product.


Lets keep in mind the freeing up of the market and/or shrinking of govt. isnt a fix, its an improvement. I'm not saying it will solve anything, be a utopia, or lead us to the promised land.
I'm saying it is vastly superior to what we have now, and the best hope minorities have of attaining wealth.

Let's also keep in mind that our government was designed how you envision it THEN, through what I believe to be a commonality shared by all man made systems, people fuked it up and started gaming it. To the best of my knowledge all man made groups that were not destroyed because of other outside groups have been destroyed from within, from governments to garage bands. As I said earlier it's our nature to focus on ME ME ME, it's when we rise above that and choose to be more than monkeys fighting over who has more bananas do we as groups start to really accomplish things.

Freeing up of the market would only allow places like Walmart to further exploit minorities, ironically enough to their own detriment. Why do I say this, well because it's what we do.

out of curiosity what's your stance on monopolies? Good, bad, should not be allowed to exist?