Trump indictment leads to huge lead over Desantis in primary polls, no movement in general election

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,331
Reputation
19,919
Daps
204,057
Reppin
the ether
@Toussaint thinks those are the people who made the decision to drop the bomb. Three guys who have OPENLY said that dropping the bomb was a bullshyt, unnecessary decision. And I already posted 20 other major figures at the time who said the same thing, all of them military, intelligence, or government officials who had deep knowledge of Japan and the military situation.

I can't even imagine how you're going to reply to this ether, but my experience with you is that you just keep going no matter how little you know or how much you get wrong, so I know the one thing you won't do is admit that your position is based on false pretenses and that you're actually not very informed about the war at all.


Notice how prophetic that was.

I caught @Toussaint lying and claiming that Truman had little to do with the decision to drop the bomb.

I caught @Toussaint lying and claiming the Joint Chiefs of Staff were the ones who made the decision, when 3/4 of them were openly opposed.

I exposed that @Toussaint didn't even know who the Interim Committee was, when they made the main and official decision to drop the bomb and picked the targets.

He also lied and claimed I called it a racial war, lied and claimed I said the American people didn't support the bombing, lied and claimed that I'm Indian, lied and claimed that i defended the Japanese government, lied and claimed I said Truman delayed the bomb on purpose, and made up this ridiculous duck tales story about Japanese fighting resolve increasing after the first bomb only to drop after the second.


And did he acknowledge any of it?

Nah, he just ignored getting caught in a dozen lies and started a new Gish Gallop. Half the shyt he says isn't even an argument and he's just making up strawman to attack. And the other half is blatantly wrong and using the dumbest sources instead of the people who were actually involved and the best historical consensus.
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,331
Reputation
19,919
Daps
204,057
Reppin
the ether
This is getting ridiculous. Let’s break down your inane conspiracy theory arguments step by step.

1. Truman used the bombs to scare the Soviets

False. There is no historical evidence, written, oral or otherwise showing this influenced Truman’s decision to use the bombs. In fact Truman informed the Soviets of a wonder weapon at the Yalta conference.

Wrong.

Read The Atomic Bomb and the Origins of the Cold War: U.S. Atomic-Energy Policy and Diplomacy, 1941-1945

"Recognizing that a monopoly of the atomic bomb gave the United States a powerful new military advantage, Roosevelt and Stimson became increasingly anxious to convert it to diplomatic advantage. In December 1944 they spoke of using the "secret" of the atomic bomb as a means of obtaining a quid pro quo from the Soviet Union....Stimson noted several months later in his diary; "Success is 99% assured, yet only by the first actual war trial of this weapon can the actual certainty be fixed."

"What can be said with certainty is that Truman, Stimson, Byrnes, and several others involved in the decision consciously considered two effects of a combat demonstration of the bomb's power: first, the impact of the atomic attack on Japan's leaders...and second, the impact of that attack on the Soviet Union's leaders, who might then prove to be more cooperative."

"When news of the successful atomic test of July 16 reached the president at the Potsdam Conference, he was visibly elated. Stimson noted that Truman 'was tremendously pepped up by it.' The day after receiving the complete report of the test Truman altered his negotiating style. According to Churchill the president 'got ot the meeting after having read this report and he was a changed man. He told the Russians just where they got on and off and generally bossed the whole meeting."

"In less than three weeks the new weapon's destructive potential would be demonstrated to the world. Stalin would then be forced to reconsider his diplomatic goals."


Your counterargument was that Truman told Stalin about the bomb at Yalta. You clearly didn't think that through at all - Truman told Stalin about the bomb for the SAME reason he wanted a demonstration - because he was trying to establish dominance over the Soviets.




2. Truman deviously waited till the Soviets invaded Manchuria to drop the bombs.

WTF are you talking about? I never said anything like that. It doesn't even make sense. This is the 5th or 6th time your reading comprehension has failed you.




Truman WAS TOLD when the bombs were going to be dropped. At no point did Truman take initiative nor order the droppings of the bombs on a specific date himself.

Oh look, you're either lying or ignorant yet again.

"A directive (right), written by Leslie Groves, approved by President Truman, and issued by Secretary of War Henry Stimson and General of the Army George Marshall, ordered the Army Air Force's 509th Composite Group to attack Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata, or Nagasaki (in that order of preference) as soon after August 3 as weather permitted."

OrderDrop1.jpg





3. The US deliberately made its conditions for peace unclear in order to prolong the war so the Atomic bombs to be tested

6. The Japanese were willing to negotiate their surrender if they just got to keep the emperor which is the same terms they got in 1945.

There are NUMEROUS members of the administration who explicitly said that if we had clarified conditions more effectively, the war could have ended earlier. Every single one of these people knows more than you do about it.


"In the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision." - Under Secretary of State Joseph Grew, former Ambassador to Japan

"What prevented them from suing for peace or from bringing their plot into the open was their uncertainty on two scores. First, they wanted to know the meaning of unconditional surrender and the fate we planned for Japan after defeat. Second, they tried to obtain from us assurances that the Emperor could remain on the throne after surrender. The Potsdam Declaration, in short, wrecked everything we had been working for to prevent further bloodshed." - Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence Ellis Zacharias

"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs." - Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." - Norman Cousins, consultant to General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area

"[When he heard] 'the Potsdam declaration in July, demand that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary." - William Manchester, MacArthur's biographer, describing the reaction of General Douglas MacArthur to the Potsdam declaration

"I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan - tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists - you'll get a peace in Japan - you'll have both wars over." - former president Herbert Hoover

"The Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945 up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs." - former president Herbert Hoover

“First, intelligence and other advice to President Truman, in significant part based on intercepted and secretly decoded Japanese cable traffic, indicated that from at least May 1945 on, Japan wished to end the war and seemed likely to do so if assurances were given that the emperor would not be eliminated. Second, similar advice to the president suggested that the shock of Soviet entry into the war (expected in early August) would likely tip the balance, almost certainly if combined with assurances concerning the emperor. Third, Truman was advised by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy, Admiral Leahy, the acting Secretary of State Joseph E. Grew, and others to let Japan know that the emperor would not be eliminated; contrary to the claims of some historians, Truman made clear that he had no serious objection to offering such assurances.” - Historians Gar Alperovitz and Kai Bird




It's wild how you keep getting basic facts blatantly wrong, keep misrepresenting the arguments against you, and keep showing total ignorance of what the actual military leaders, intelligence officials, and policy leaders said at the time.

Do you seriously think you know more about the wartime situation than the most important leaders who were there? You, the same person who didn't know what the Potsdam Declaration was and had never heard of the Interim Committee until I told you?
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,331
Reputation
19,919
Daps
204,057
Reppin
the ether
4. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were specifically chosen to test the bombs

False. Truman selected Hiroshima because of its military value. Nagasaki was selected much later in the process and its natural geography limited civilian casualties.

This is always baffling argument from revisionists as if the US couldn’t have selected more populated civilian areas for a so-called testing.

God, you're so naive. Here's the actual qualifications for the dropping of the bomb:

"Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualifications:

(1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles diameter,

(2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and

(3) they are likely to be unattacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Forces would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise."



As I already said, they weren't trying to test the bomb on the best military target possible, or the largest population possible. They were looking for THE MOST UNTOUCHED URBAN CENTER POSSIBLE, one where they could show the full impact of the bomb on a city.

They purposely avoided places that were going to be conventionally bombed before August, because that would interfere with studying the impact. That kills your claim that they were looking for the most important military target. They purposely avoided places that didn't have a huge urban area. That proves they were looking to destroy a whole city, not a military objective. Of course, the targets had to have "some" military objective, so they could claim they were undertaking a military attack and not just an overt war crime. But Groves' list of qualifications proves that the military objective was not the #1 concern, otherwise they wouldn't have included the "large urban area of more than three miles diameter" qualification or asked the air force to "reserve" those targets and avoid attacking them until the bombs were ready.




5. Japan was already beaten, and wasn’t a threat to anyone.

You think a few hundred military casualties a couple weeks earlier proves that point wrong? Come on now. Let me repeat the words of our actual military leaders whose own lives were at stake:



Fleet Admiral William Leahy, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."


General Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander Europe
"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."

"The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." - Dwight Eisenhower reflecting on the event 18 years later



General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area
"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." - Norman Cousins, consultant to Douglas MacArthur



Brigadier General Bonner Fellers, in charge of psychological warfare on MacArthur's staff
"Obviously, the atomic bomb neither induced the Emperor's decision to surrender nor had any effect on the ultimate outcome of the war."



Fleet Admiral Chester William Nimitz, Commander in Chief of Pacific Forces
"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into war...The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life. We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything."



Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, deputy to Hap Arnold
"Arnold's view was that it [the dropping of the atomic bomb] was unnecessary. He said that he knew the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it."



Major General Curtis E. LeMay, Commander of the Twenty-First Bomber Command
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."



General Carl Spaatz, in charge of U.S. Army Air Force Operations in the Pacific
"Both men felt Japan would surrender without use of the bomb, and neither knew why the second bomb was used." - Averell Harriman, former Ambassador to the Soviet Union, describing the opinions of Carl "Tooey" Spaatz, General and Commander of the U.S. Army Strategic Air Force, and General Frederick L. Anderson, Deputty Commanding General at USASTAF


Colonel Charles "Tick" Bonesteel, Chief of the War Department Operations Division Policy Section
"The poor damn Japanese were putting feelers out by the ton so to speak, through Russia."


Brigadier General Carter Clarke, military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables for Truman
"we brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."




But you know more about the situation than all of our military and intelligence leaders who were right there? You, who have already proven in this conversation that you don't even know the basic details of how or when the decision was made, or who made it, and are just getting your information from random college professors giving the "pro-America" view of events?
 

King Poetic

The D.O.G. (Disciple of God)
Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
103,348
Reputation
21,706
Daps
504,378
Reppin
Black Diaspora
Desantis and his supporters Need to realize he has no chance against trump. No other republican don’t either.

Trump can rape their daughter , fukk they wife on the dinner table while the family eating and these cacs will still vote for him
 

3rdWorld

Veteran
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
47,827
Reputation
4,768
Daps
140,093
Desantis and his supporters Need to realize he has no chance against trump. No other republican don’t either.

Trump can rape their daughter , fukk they wife on the dinner table while the family eating and these cacs will still vote for him

Cacs love the psychotic retard Trump because they can always slyly pretend he didnt mean what he just said..whereas with a cold dictator like DeFascist they cant hide behind his erraticness and confusion.
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,331
Reputation
19,919
Daps
204,057
Reppin
the ether
Here's another article on the Target Committee, talking about how their discussions largely revolved around the size of urban area and how effectively it would show off the bomb's destructive power. Military objectives are barely even mentioned, "must have military significance" is just treated as a list item they have to check off for political correctness rather than as the actual objective of the bombing.


 
Top