Venezuela Crisis: Failed coup attempt by Juan Guaido; Military remains supporting Nicholas Maduro
- Thread starter 88m3
- Start date
Secure Da Bag
Veteran
I bet Pompeo took notice of all those guns behind Maduro though. 
Bernie comes out against Maduro
People are mad at Bernie now
People are mad at Bernie now
AndroidHero
Superstar
Bernie comes out against Maduro
People are mad at Bernie now
Bernie is right, funny seeing all these leftists criticise him and defending an autocratic dictator.
DrBanneker
Space is the Place
Ok, justify killing leaders and destabilizing countries because the leadership is full of bad people (I never repped Maduro, never said he should remain). After Iraq/Libya/Syria I would think the caution about blowback would instill people with caution, that the "opposition" needs to show it has roots in popular support and civil society to be successful. I wouldn't mind sanctions, condemnation, and isolation but this regime change crap needs to get reigned in. But of course this time is different so I am just being alarmist since this whole plan can't go wrong.
I agree with the points about the hypocrisy and though I didn't think the US needed to be in Syria, I never celebrated Assad either. If his own people removed him
The problem with the Syria analogy was that leftists/libertarians supporting Putin's intervention in Syria (which I didn't) and supporting Maduro will fall back on that both are the internationally recognized heads of state (though both due to sham elections). Assad's trump card was he was the "legitimate" president of Syria and could legally ask for foreign assistance. Backing the opposition in Venezuela. even if morally right, isn't exactly the same and some could interpret it (as Sergei Lavrov already has) as regime change.
This is my key issue that some are missing. I don't like Maduro, he is not a hero, in fact I think he is scum. But the problem is that when you remove people like Maduro from the outside, you don't solve the problem, in fact you may make it worse in the destabilized institutions and the blowback from the parts of the population resenting the foreign interference or disenfranchisement under the new regime.
As much as this may piss people off I think the best move the opposition and the other countries could make right now is to promise the military generals amnesty from any prosecution if they align with the new government. They also need to speak to the people voting for Maduro (and yes he has a constituency). Guaido relying on foreign powers to put him in could backfire badly.
Lets just be 100% honest here... No duh rich Ring wingers in America DESPISE socialism especially what happened after Cuba. They lost all their private business in Cuba nor can they own as much private businesses in Cuba like they can say... The Bahamas.
But lets be even more honest... These Right wingers just wanna turn Latin America/Caribbean into their own deviant backyard Vegas. Yea its also about American imperialism/hegemony but Latin America has always been their deviant playground. Again this is one reason they despise socialism.
But lets be even more honest... These Right wingers just wanna turn Latin America/Caribbean into their own deviant backyard Vegas. Yea its also about American imperialism/hegemony but Latin America has always been their deviant playground. Again this is one reason they despise socialism.
thatrapsfan
Superstar
Ok, justify killing leaders and destabilizing countries because the leadership is full of bad people (I never repped Maduro, never said he should remain). After Iraq/Libya/Syria I would think the caution about blowback would instill people with caution, that the "opposition" needs to show it has roots in popular support and civil society to be successful. I wouldn't mind sanctions, condemnation, and isolation but this regime change crap needs to get reigned in. But of course this time is different so I am just being alarmist since this whole plan can't go wrong.
I agree with the points about the hypocrisy and though I didn't think the US needed to be in Syria, I never celebrated Assad either. If his own people removed him
The problem with the Syria analogy was that leftists/libertarians supporting Putin's intervention in Syria (which I didn't) and supporting Maduro will fall back on that both are the internationally recognized heads of state (though both due to sham elections). Assad's trump card was he was the "legitimate" president of Syria and could legally ask for foreign assistance. Backing the opposition in Venezuela. even if morally right, isn't exactly the same and some could interpret it (as Sergei Lavrov already has) as regime change.
This is my key issue that some are missing. I don't like Maduro, he is not a hero, in fact I think he is scum. But the problem is that when you remove people like Maduro from the outside, you don't solve the problem, in fact you may make it worse in the destabilized institutions and the blowback from the parts of the population resenting the foreign interference or disenfranchisement under the new regime.
As much as this may piss people off I think the best move the opposition and the other countries could make right now is to promise the military generals amnesty from any prosecution if they align with the new government. They also need to speak to the people voting for Maduro (and yes he has a constituency). Guaido relying on foreign powers to put him in could backfire badly.
Good points and I do not disagree with them. The paramount goal must be to maintain what is left of Venezuela's institutions, even if means making big concessions. A tabula rasa whole scale change never works, especially if it leaves whoever succeeds zero to work with.
My main point is that its not true that outside intervention is always destined to fail, particularly in an intractable crisis like this one ( and particularly when its not unilateral). It should always be a last-gasp option, but I dont agree with the doctrinaire approach that contends any US projection of power is disastrous , regardless of context.
As for the Syria analogy, it may be imperfect, but you only need to look further south to see how the same leftists/libertarians would respond to an alternate set of facts. In Yemen, the "legitimate" and internationally-recognized President was overthrown by a rebel group, and legally asked for intervention from neighouring Gulf states and from Day 1 they've strongly opposed it. Rightly or wrongly, I think the main predictor of how they form their opinions is what the U.S. policy preference is.
Yes, I won’t be surprised if Brazil slips back into dictatorship in a few years. Bolsonaro is power hungry, unpredictable and he already has some of the OGs from the military dictatorship in his cabinet. He pretty much revealed his preference for absolute power when he was running, yet people still voted for him.
I know they’re desperate because of the crime and poverty but come on! Well, they’ve made their bed, now they’ll lie in it. Democracy comes with responsibilities.
Brazilians are very emotional people .... They had 12 years of prosperity during Lulas reign and
yet the 4 year recession under Lima is all they think about.
ill
Superstar
A multi-year recession is a pretty significant thing weighing on the minds in Brazilians.
Ours lasted less time and we were all losing our shyt. When their govt is even more corrupt than ours, I think it’s fair for them to worry about it.
A multi-year recession is a pretty significant thing weighing on the minds in Brazilians.
Ours lasted less time and we were all losing our shyt. When their govt is even more corrupt than ours, I think it’s fair for them to worry about it.
True but falling commodity prices and oil prices/Chinese demand ARE external factors....
Our was due to internal factors driven by real estate/finance sector
Corruption only became a problem there during the economic downturn. During the boom years nobody gave a f*ck
AndroidHero
Superstar
Its weird how some progressives and leftists justify and excuse Russian military involvement in Syria and their bombing of civilians because the 'legitimate' Syrian government invited them, but at the same time they oppose Saudi intervention in Yemen even though just like Syria the Yemeni government wanted the Saudi to intervene.
Its one thing to be against military interventions and regime change but its another thing to support dictators and whitewash their crimes just because they are anti-west like what some progressives are doing.
Betty Draper
Pro
CAIRCOM and various South American nations are already dealing with it, though. Millions of Venezuelans are flooding Brazil and Colombia, so all these nations have a vested interest in getting rid of Maduro. It’s not just some US conspiracy as you seem to think. You do realise the issue in Venezuela is an humanitarian crisis right now? People can’t afford the bare essentials, food is scarce. Price of oil dropped and Venezuela’s economy is too dependent on oil, so how will better maintenance of the oil industry help? They seriously need to diversify their economy. The sanctions cannot be blamed for all the financial woes in that country. Maduro has mismanaged his position and their economy was limited. I agree that aid in the form of food or whatever should be sent but that will do very little in the grand scheme of things. The nation needs new leadership and a different economic structure to survive. With or without US meddling strong opposition and a power struggle would have happened.
