What did 2nd Temple Judaism Believe……REALLY?

[Koichos]

If any Jewish leader (who wasn’t the messiah) tried to establish himself as “King”, rebuilt the temple, sat on the “throne”, and tried to fight other nations what would happen to him?

As I stated above, ‘only he can accomplish the tasks set out for him’. We will know that he is the King-Mashiyaħ when who and what he is becomes obvious for the entire world to see because he will be recognized as Yisra´el’s king and crowned in the ancient (Biblical) manner by a recognized Prophet, reassemble the entire Jewish nation in Eretz Yisra´el and reunify the severed Y'hudi and Yisr´eli kingdoms, rebuild (read: preside over the building of) the Holy Temple, enforce proper Torah observance, etc etc.

Will the “King Messiah” to come in Judaism rule Israel only or the entire world?

The King-Mashiyaħ, when he does come to power, will reign over the whole world, not only over Yisra´el.

וּמַלְכֿוּתָֿ֨א וְשָׁלְטָנָ֜א וּרְבֿוּתָֿ֗א
דִּ֚י מַלְכְֿוָתֿ֙ תְּח֣וֹתֿ כׇּל־שְׁמַיָּ֔א
יְהִיבַֿ֕תֿ לְעַ֖ם קַדִּישֵׁ֣י עֶלְיוֹנִ֑ין
מַלְכֿוּתֵֿהּ֙ מַלְכֿ֣וּתֿ עָלַ֔ם
וְכֹֿל֙ שׇׁלְטָ֣נַיָּ֔א לֵ֥הּ יִפְֿלְח֖וּן וְיִֽשְׁתַּמְּעֽוּן׃​

...and then the kingdom, the dominion and the greatness
of the kingdoms below all the heavens
will be given to the people of the Supreme Holy One’s saints [i.e., Yisra´el];
his [the King-Mashiyaħ’s] kingdom will be a worldwide [or, ‘perpetual’] kingdom
and all of the [other] dominions will serve and obey [him]. (Daniyyel 7:27)

Daniyyel 2:4b-7:28 is written in Aramaic. The word used here, עׇלַם `alam, is typically translated ‘perpetual’ (a kingdom presided over by a succession of human kings, each of them living, dying and being succeeded by his heir). But the Aramaic word עׇלַם `alam - just like the corresponding Hebrew word עוֹלׇם `οlam - can also mean ‘the world’.

In his excellent dictionary, Marcus (Mordochai) Jastrow writes on page 1084, column II, bottom,

עׇלַם III, עַלְ׳ ,עׇלְמׇא ,עֲלַם m. = h. עוֹלׇם, eternity, world &c.

and so the Aramaic phrase מַלְכֿ֣וּתֿ עָלַ֔ם malchut `alam in Daniyyel 7:27 can equally well be rendered as ‘a world kingdom’, that is, a worldwide kingdom. This reading is supported by the ensuing clause וְכֹֿל֙ שׇׁלְטָ֣נַיָּ֔א לֵ֥הּ יִפְֿלְח֖וּן וְיִֽשְׁתַּמְּעֽוּן v'chοl shοlṭanayya leH yifl'ħun v'yishtam`un (‘and all of the [other] dominions will serve and obey [him]’).

 

[DoubleClutch]

As I stated above, ‘only he can accomplish the tasks set out for him’. We will know that he is the King-Mashiyaħ when who and what he is becomes obvious for the entire world to see because he will be recognized as Yisra´el’s king and crowned in the ancient (Biblical) manner by a recognized Prophet, reassemble the entire Jewish nation in Eretz Yisra´el and reunify the severed Y'hudi and Yisr´eli kingdoms, rebuild (read: preside over the building of) the Holy Temple, enforce proper Torah observance, etc etc.


The King-Mashiyaħ, when he does come to power, will reign over the whole world, not only over Yisra´el.

Daniyyel 2:4b-7:28 is written in Aramaic. The word used here, עׇלַם `alam, is typically translated ‘perpetual’ (a kingdom presided over by a succession of human kings, each of them living, dying and being succeeded by his heir). But the Aramaic word עׇלַם `alam - just like the corresponding Hebrew word עוֹלׇם `οlam - can also mean ‘the world’.

In his excellent dictionary, Marcus (Mordochai) Jastrow writes on page 1084, column II, bottom,

and so the Aramaic phrase מַלְכֿ֣וּתֿ עָלַ֔ם malchut `alam in Daniyyel 7:27 can equally well be rendered as ‘a world kingdom’, that is, a worldwide kingdom. This reading is supported by the ensuing clause וְכֹֿל֙ שׇׁלְטָ֣נַיָּ֔א לֵ֥הּ יִפְֿלְח֖וּן וְיִֽשְׁתַּמְּעֽוּן v'chοl shοlṭanayya leH yifl'ħun v'yishtam`un (‘and all of the [other] dominions will serve and obey [him]’).

Interesting… so you believe the same thing as end times Christians

Or Jews during the time of Muhammad who were also waiting for the “Messiah”

Perhaps they thought Muhammad or one of the later Islamic rulers was the “Prophet” to reclaim Israel from Rome, build the temple and bring the Messiah.

Did you ever think of this?

 

[Koichos]

Interesting… so you believe the same thing as end times Christians

Or Jews during the time of Muhammad who were also waiting for the “Messiah”

Perhaps they thought Muhammad or one of the later Islamic rulers was the “Prophet” to reclaim Israel from Rome, build the temple and bring the Messiah.

Did you ever think of this?

No, because the Prophet has to be a Jew, and Muħammad and his ilk were neither.

 

[DoubleClutch]

No, because the Prophet has to be a Jew, and Muħammad and his ilk were neither.

What if it was a rogue “jew” using “Muhammad” without the approval of the Jewish leadership

Or what if it was an Arab leader claiming both Arab and Jewish mixed ancestry like say for example Yemeni Jews have.

 

[Koichos]

What if it was a rogue “jew” using “Muhammad” without the approval of the Jewish leadership

Now I’ve heard it all.

Or what if it was an Arab leader claiming both Arab and Jewish mixed ancestry like say for example Yemeni Jews have.

No such status exists: one cannot be ‘partly Jewish’ any more than a woman can be ‘partly pregnant’. You are either a Jew, or you are not; Yemenites are, Arabs are not.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Now I’ve heard it all.


No such status exists: one cannot be ‘partly Jewish’ any more than a woman can be ‘partly pregnant’. You are either a Jew, or you are not; Yemenites are, Arabs are not.

Come on I know you’re more knowledgeable on the Bible than me.

The genealogy of figures in the Bible is very mixed

I’m not sure if the definition of who is Jewish “ethnically” has changed or evolved but how are Yemeni or even Ethiopians considered Jewish yet their lineage would also trace to Arab & African ancestry

I’m just saying no everyone (especially during 6-7 Century) subscribed to the views you hold which are taught today

You need to think like you’re back in the past

And yes I was surprised. It was a Jewish person who told me these theories and it even gets crazier

I could post the videos but that’s another topic altogether

 

[Koichos]

Come on I know you’re more knowledgeable on the Bible than me.

The genealogy of figures in the Bible is very mixed

I’m not sure if the definition of who is Jewish “ethnically” has changed or evolved but how are Yemeni or even Ethiopians considered Jewish yet their lineage would also trace to Arab & African ancestry

I’m just saying no everyone (especially during 6-7 Century) subscribed to the views you hold which are taught today

You need to think like you’re back in the past

And yes I was surprised. It was a Jewish person who told me these theories and it even gets crazier

I could post the videos but that’s another topic altogether

Jewishness is not genetic, nor has it ever been. The process in which one is (or is not) a Jew recurs at least back to the Divine Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sinai Desert.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Jewishness is not genetic, nor has it ever been. The process in which one is (or is not) a Jew recurs at least back to the Divine Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sinai Desert.

Right so a prophet could be from a Jew of Arab descent

Or at least a rogue group of Arabs claiming to be Jews.

It’s not as far fetched of an idea back then before Islam became synonymous with Islam

Before Islam Arabia already had monotheistic religion and Judaism had already influenced many different peoples

Do you underestimate your own religion?

 

[MMS]

Jewishness is not genetic, nor has it ever been. The process in which one is (or is not) a Jew recurs at least back to the Divine Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sinai Desert.

speaking of divine revelations

i was reading exodus and it occurred to me, the term holy "qodesh" is not found in genesis

Qetesh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

lets assume two thoughts as an experiment, that the term is like a woman or like a lioness


nor are its root words found in genesis (the goat eats the grass and the roots... ) then it also occurred to me that the usage of "scrolls" for writing fell out of favor all at the same time period

no matter where I've looked the only group that still uses scrolls (that are stored and wound back up) are still the Jews. The creation of the Roman "Codex" filtered all other traditions

History of scrolls - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

not the Taoists, Buddhists or Hindus seem to maintain scrolls as a source for their works this is also linked to your post regarding my thoughts on this

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/jesus-proven-not-to-be-the-messiah.1084636/page-8#post-55792753

 

[Koichos]

speaking of divine revelations

i was reading exodus and it occurred to me, the term holy "qodesh" is not found in genesis

Qetesh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

lets assume two thoughts as an experiment, that the term is like a woman or like a lioness

nor are its root words found in genesis (the goat eats the grass and the roots... ) then it also occurred to me that the usage of "scrolls" for writing fell out of favor all at the same time period

Noun: קֹדֶשׁ ḳοdesh (‘holiness’)
Adjective: קָדוֹשׁ ḳadοsh (‘holy’)

Neither occurs in B'reshіt, but the verb-root קדשׁ (‘to set [something] aside’ or ‘to set [something] apart’) - from which they derive - does:

וַיְבָֿ֤רֶךְֿ אֱלֹקִים֙ אֶתֿ־י֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔י וַיְקַדֵּ֖שׁ אֹתֿ֑וֹ כִּ֣י בֿ֤וֹ שָׁבַֿת֙ מִכׇּל־מְלַאֿכְֿתּ֔וֹ אֲשֶׁר־בָּרָ֥א אֱלֹקִ֖ים לַֽעֲשֽׂוֹתֿ׃​

So God blessed the Shabbat day and set it aside [to be given to Yisra´el], because on it He paused from all His m'la´chah [‘creative activity’]... (B'reshіt 2:3)

The word וַיְקַדֵּשׁ vay'ḳaddesh (יְקַדֵּשׁ y'ḳaddesh with the וַ־ va- or ‘inverting vav’, reversing the tense from future into past) is the third-person masculine singular conjugation of root קדשׁ. See, for example, Sh'mοt 13:2 where God commands Yisra´el to קַדֶּשׁ־לִ֨י כׇֿל־בְּכ֜וֹר.. לִ֖י הוּא ḳaddesh li chοl b'chοr.. li hu ‘Set aside every firstborn for Me.. he is Mine’.

no matter where I've looked the only group that still uses scrolls (that are stored and wound back up) are still the Jews. The creation of the Roman "Codex" filtered all other traditions

History of scrolls - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

not the Taoists, Buddhists or Hindus seem to maintain scrolls as a source for their works this is also linked to your post regarding my thoughts on this

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/jesus-proven-not-to-be-the-messiah.1084636/page-8#post-55792753

Tradition is everything - we are very careful to preserve it, almost pedantically so and perhaps the reason for such high rates of ‘Orthodox Compulsive Disorder’ (heh!!). Still today, Torah scrolls are removed from the aron haḳodesh every Monday, Thursday and Shabbat for ceremonial readings (so that not even three days should ever pass without at least 10 verses of the Torah being recited publicly: kohanіm are always accorded the honor of reading the first section, l'vіyyіm the second, and ordinary yіsr´elіm the third).

In any kasher prayer-hall (beіt k'neset) all public readings are done from scrolls that are housed in a special cupboard (aron haḳodesh) with one slot for the Torah, eight slots for each of the N'vi´im scrolls (Y'hοshu`a, Shοfṭіm, Sh'mu´el, M'lachіm, Y'sha`yahu, Yіrm'yahu, Y'hezḳel, T'reі `Asar), and five slots for the five M'gіllοt (Shіr Hashіrіm, Rut, Eіchah, Ḳοhelet, Ester: #4-8 of the eleven K'tuvіm; some bateі k'neset also have scrolls of the other six, but I’m not aware of those ever being used for ceremonial readings).

And if one wishes to own a Torah scroll, it must be treated with great honor! It must be kept in a special cupboard like the one in a beіt k'neset where the scrolls are housed, if possible in its own room; it must be stored standing up (rather than lying down); and ideally prayer services should be held in the room where it is kept so it can be read aloud from in the ceremonial manner every Monday, Thursday and Shabbat morning and also every Shabbat afternoon (*as well as on other Jewish feast days and days of fasting*).

​

 

[MMS]

Noun: קֹדֶשׁ ḳοdesh (‘holiness’)
Adjective: קָדוֹשׁ ḳadοsh (‘holy’)

Neither occurs in B'reshіt, but the verb-root קדשׁ (‘to set [something] aside’ or ‘to set [something] apart’) - from which they derive - does:

The word וַיְקַדֵּשׁ vay'ḳaddesh (יְקַדֵּשׁ y'ḳaddesh with the וַ־ va- or ‘inverting vav’, reversing the tense from future into past) is the third-person masculine singular conjugation of root קדשׁ. See, for example, Sh'mοt 13:2 where God commands Yisra´el to קַדֶּשׁ־לִ֨י כׇֿל־בְּכ֜וֹר.. לִ֖י הוּא ḳaddesh li chοl b'chοr.. li hu ‘Set aside every firstborn for Me.. he is Mine’.


Tradition is everything - we are very careful to preserve it, almost pedantically so and perhaps the reason for such high rates of ‘Orthodox Compulsive Disorder’ (heh!!). Still today, Torah scrolls are removed from the aron haḳodesh every Monday, Thursday and Shabbat for ceremonial readings (so that not even three days should ever pass without at least 10 verses of the Torah being recited publicly: kohanіm are always accorded the honor of reading the first section, l'vіyyіm the second, and ordinary yіsr´elіm the third).

In any kasher prayer-hall (beіt k'neset) all public readings are done from scrolls that are housed in a special cupboard (aron haḳodesh) with one slot for the Torah, eight slots for each of the N'vi´im scrolls (Y'hοshu`a, Shοfṭіm, Sh'mu´el, M'lachіm, Y'sha`yahu, Yіrm'yahu, Y'hezḳel, T'reі `Asar), and five slots for the five M'gіllοt (Shіr Hashіrіm, Rut, Eіchah, Ḳοhelet, Ester: #4-8 of the eleven K'tuvіm; some bateі k'neset also have scrolls of the other six, but I’m not aware of those ever being used for ceremonial readings).

And if one wishes to own a Torah scroll, it must be treated with great honor! It must be kept in a special cupboard like the one in a beіt k'neset where the scrolls are housed, if possible in its own room; it must be stored standing up (rather than lying down); and ideally prayer services should be held in the room where it is kept so it can be read aloud from in the ceremonial manner every Monday, Thursday and Shabbat morning and also every Shabbat afternoon (*as well as on other Jewish feast days and days of fasting*).

​

that makes the boundary between exodus and genesis seem even more profound

in a strange irony, i have a yoga mat that i ordered from china in a similar housing to what you described that I had tested for my private label business that I never did main production in

maybe this isnt a coincidence

Muslims used to use scrolls but the only thing close geometrically are their prayer mats

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/jesus-proven-not-to-be-the-messiah.1084636/page-11#post-55818362

 

[DoubleClutch]

@Koichos could this actually be true

I remember a Palestinian man told me this years ago and I laughed at him

 

[Koichos]

@Koichos could this actually be true

I remember a Palestinian man told me this years ago and I laughed at him

No, there has been a retaining wall on that site for 3,000 years. The lowest courses of the kοtel ma`aravі (the ‘Western Wall’ of the ancient Temple compound, close to which stood the ḳοdesh haḳḳοdashim ‘Holiest [Chamber]’) date from Sh'lοmοh’s First Temple; the biggest blocks of dressed stone above today’s ground level date from the time of Harod the Great; and the uppermost rows of much smaller blocks, extending the existing walls upward, are even later additions and date from the Muslims and the Ottomans.

 

[DoubleClutch]

@Koichos what can you tell me about Nehemiah Ben Hushiel

What have you read or learned about him? And why is he a significant figure back then?

What’s the opinion today on him among Jewish Rabbis?

 

[MMS]

@Koichos so I was watching this rabbi speak on something and he randomly mentioned a lady who said that "Gerizim"was the true holy site...



and it occurred to me that an interesting dynamic occurred there

they pronounced "blessings" on Gerizim but Curses on Mt Ebal...

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 27 - King James Version

And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day. And it shall be on the day when ye shall pass over Jordan unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones, and plaister them with...

www.biblegateway.com

and they split the israelites into two camps to do this

The tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin were to be sent to Gerizim, while those of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali, were to remain on Ebal.[11] No attempts to explain this division of tribes either by their Biblical ethnology or by their geographical distribution have been generally accepted in academic circles.[7]

now riddle me this, would you compare Mountains to breasts? and if so would the two mountains in such close proximity be the streams spoken of that were given to Achsah upon the conquest of Kirjath Sepher?

Genesis 29:31 Hebrew Text Analysis

comes to mind (no pun intended) but so does this

Numbers 22:6 Hebrew Text Analysis