What is the exact PROOF that Lebron is a better "all-round" player than Jordan? Stats say otherwise

Discussion in 'The Coliseum' started by viktordoomsecretwars, May 23, 2020.

  1. viktordoomsecretwars

    viktordoomsecretwars All Star

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    It's a cool thing to say. Even Magic said that recently. But is it really true? Let's look at a quick statistical analysis. (Read carefully and this is not a bash Lebron thread)

    It seems people confuse being a triple threat (i.e points, rebounds, assists) with being an all round player. This gets wildly conflated with being "all round" but that is a flawed viewpoint in the first place. By that standard, Oscar Robertson and Russell Westbrook are two of the best all round players of all time. We know that's not the case.

    Jordan is a better offensive and defensive player than Lebron. Jordan has 10 scoring titles to Lebron's 1. Jordan has a DPOTY and 9 all NBA defensive first team nod. Lebron does NOT have a DPOTY and has 5 all NBA defensive first team nods. To anyone with a brain who watched both players, I think its obvious Jordan was clearly a superior defender. Jordan was arguably the best perimeter defender in the history of the game. Lebron has been lambasted for his defense for half of his career.

    In terms of box score dominance i.e Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks, TO% FG % and FT%, there is no better all round player than Jordan in the modern history of the game.

    Basic objective analysis of stats show this.

    Let's use GameScore, which is an all encompassing stat for individual games (THE NBA LINK BELOW EXPLAINS IT): https://www.nba.com/resources/static/team/v2/thunder/statlab-gamescore-191201.pdf

    Let's use a Gamescore of "40" which according to Hollinger represents a 'fantastic game' and 'outstanding performance' and see which player has the most stastically dominant games of the last 40 years.

    Using basketball reference : https://www.basketball-reference.co...at=game_score&c1comp=gt&c1val=40&order_by=pts

    ^^^ The results show that Jordan is by far the most dominant box score player of the modern era (this does not take into account all players before steals and blocks were compiled). But that's irrelevant anyway, since both Lebron and Jordan played in the modern era.

    This is why I also laugh when people try and use the fact that Lebron has marginal point advantages in rebounds and assists over Jordan to prove he's better all round. Never mind this is an extremely flawed way to compare players (Westbrook has more assists/rebounds per average than Lebron and Bird has more assists/rebound average than Jordan. So?)

    Never mind the fact that Lebron is a much bigger man: 6'9 small forward vs 6'6 shooting guard.

    Never mind the fact Lebron has the ball in his hands all the time (more assists) : Jordan was mostly an off ball player. And when Jordan played Lebron's point guard/point forward position for less than half a season in 1989, he did it BETTER than Lebron. In his first game as a point guard in 1989, Jordan had 17 assists (which will be 2nd highest all time in Lebron's entire career) and went on a streak of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

    So I don't even believe Lebron is a better passer. At best, they're about equal. Maybe Lebron is very very slightly better passer. What I do know is Lebron plays a position where he has the ball in his hands at all times. But that's a seperate thread.

    If I arbitrarily change GameScore "40" to "35" I still come up with similar results:
    https://www.basketball-reference.co...at=game_score&c1comp=gt&c1val=35&order_by=pts

    Jordan has 148 such games and Lebron has 81.

    The point is GameScore just disproves that myth. Jordan has 56 games with a GameScore of "40" or more. Lebron is tied for 2nd with 26.

    Jordan is a better offensive player than Lebron.

    Jordan is a better defensive player than Lebron.

    Jordan showed greater dominance of the boxscore than Lebron and was a better "stat stuffer" than Lebron despite not being a player that played with the ball in his hands. Something Lebron has done all his career.
    This isn't a bash Lebron thread. He's quite clearly one of the all time greats and the best small forward in the history of the game. So let's not turn it into that.

    Just trying to disprove this urban legend.
     
  2. McPiff

    McPiff #classics.

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    :francis:
     
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  3. Mad Good Dro

    Mad Good Dro Superstar Supporter

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    Jordan played in an expansion era with no zone defense that added 6 teams in 8 years and stripped teams of talent. Stop it with this modern era shyt. :unimpressed:
     
  4. Jplaya2023

    Jplaya2023 Superstar Supporter

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    stop repeating incorret corny coli nikkas narrative
     
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  5. viktordoomsecretwars

    viktordoomsecretwars All Star

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    Expansion era:

    Some of the best teams Jordan had to beat were expansion team. Orlando and Miami were expansion teams that won in excess of 60+ games and Orlando was ridiculously stacked.

    "Zone" is nonsense in this era of 3 ball. There is far too much space between the lines for zone defense to be reliable. Teams in today's NBA play man to man just because of the insane spacing. Its basically man to man like in Jordan's era today. But without handchecking and with the new defensive 3 second violation rule

    You're just repeating myths. But "intelligent" response to the thread i guess: :stopitslime::mjlol:
     
  6. KingJay

    KingJay Superstar

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    :dahell:I'm a Kobe stan, made the thread on how Bron not even at Kareem level let alone Mike, but I'm still never gonna say some dumb shyt like this :mjlol: Bron is unquestionably a better passer and rebounder than Mike, and his size/athleticism combo lets him bang inside and defend larger players while still covering guards and doing perimeter stuff. That's what makes Bron so "rounded"

    It doesn't make him better, but his versatility is maybe unprecedented

    What makes Mike greater is his superior scoring, mentality, and defense.
     
  7. SkiHatDaGawd8/24/GG

    SkiHatDaGawd8/24/GG Universal Gawd

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    The majority of Jordan’s career was in the triangle, his all around stat padding was useless and counterproductive to the triangle. Lebron’s offenses revolved solely around him. Which is why stats are subjective and need to be put in context when comparing them.
     
  8. viktordoomsecretwars

    viktordoomsecretwars All Star

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    Well, you didn't read this thread at all. I'll just re-post something I posted in the Last Dance thread:

    Lebron plays with the ball in his hands all the time. Jordan was mostly an off ball player. He briefly played Lebron's point guard/forward positon in the 89 season. When he played point guard for the first time he had 17 assists : Chicago Bulls at Portland Trail Blazers Box Score, March 24, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com in game 65 and went on a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

    I think Lebron's career record for a game with the most assists is 19 and his second highest is 16. Jordan had 17 assists and 15 assists in the space of a week when he started playing the point.

    Jordan had 31 triple doubles in his career and 10 of them came in a space of 2 weeks when he played point guard and had the ball in his hands all the time at the top of the key like Lebron has had every season since he was a rookie. Jordan and Lebron don't play the same position.

    Jordan only played point guard for about 14 games in the 88/89 season but that was enough to boost his apg total that season to 8.0 assists. Michael Jordan 1988-89 Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

    If Jordan played that position all his career, we'll be talking about equaling or surpassing Oscar Robertson's all time triple double record.

    My point is when Jordan played Lebron's position, he did it better than Lebron and also played all time great defense to boot.
     
  9. KingJay

    KingJay Superstar

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    Do you watch this sport or type about it on TheColi :unimpressed:
    It's unquestionable Bron is the better passer - dude is a straight savant. Is Westbrook a better passer than Bron too? :comeon:
     
  10. viktordoomsecretwars

    viktordoomsecretwars All Star

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    You're not offering any real arguments other than "i'm telling you so". I think Jordan's the better passer, unquestionably. See how that works?
     
  11. KingJay

    KingJay Superstar

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    You're being a dumbass, see how that works? :mjlol:
    Again, is :youngsabo: a better passer than Bron? [​IMG]
     
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  12. Mad Good Dro

    Mad Good Dro Superstar Supporter

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    It’s funny cuz young Shaq and Orlando is probably the only top 15 player under 30 Jordan faced and beat in his prime. and even then he couldn’t beat them until they added the Goat rebounder and a top 10 all time defender on top of an already stacked defensive roster.

    Meanwhile lebron has battled KD, Steph and Kawhi AND Duncan in Their prime most of his career and has beaten all of them in a finals.

    Jordan cried about zone and illegal defense to the league and got the rules changes and admitted that he wouldn’t have had the career he did without those changes.:
    “It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.” IF ZONE DEFENSES COME IN, STARS MAY GO OUT



    So Jordan was 1-9 and getting his ass whooped yearly in the 80s before it took the expansion era AND illegal defense AND zone that he cried for being banned , AND the lakers, Celtics and Pistons becoming old and injured. Before he started winning. That’s yall GOAT? :deadmanny:
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  13. ISO

    ISO Pass me the rock nikka

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    Michael Jordan spent the entire high paced stat inflated, man to man defense 80’s racking up gaudy numbers and stat-padding with usage rates higher than LeBron.

    He was called a ball hog and people thought you couldn’t win with a player like him.

    If you think MJ is on LeBron’s level as a passer of a basketball you’re eye for skill and talent is garbage. MJ’s highest assist season came from a year he played point and looked to stat pad for triple doubles like Westbrook, he would often check his numbers at halftime this is documented.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  14. viktordoomsecretwars

    viktordoomsecretwars All Star

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    @ISO Lebron over the last 4 years has played in an NBA with a higher pace than anytime in MJ's career. Jordan spent most of his championship winning years in the lowest pace era in NBA history :

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ISO

    ISO Pass me the rock nikka

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    It’s not about the quality of the teams you dunce. Those teams also weren’t good out the gate obviously they got better with the expansion draft+high lottery picks. It’s about the dilution of talent and the league getting old in the late 90’s.

    Zone is not “nonsense” idiot. The Raptors won a title and limited Steph Curry with a box and one zone and Giannis with a 2-3 and 1-3-1 zone. An NBA zone designed to stop an individual is not the same shyt as what you play in the park with your homies.

    MJ specifically spoke against zones as have many NBA players...
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020

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