Whats wrong with the Libertarians?

David_TheMan

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Libertarianism empowers bigots through their neglect towards minorities under the guise of "freedom"

Its the same "well theres no one stopping you" bullshyt which ignores the fact that under the same notion people can "do what they want" to infringe ever so slightly upon others.

Bigots have the right to be bigots as long as they don't enfringe on the rights of others. I see no problem with that.
I do see though that you have the inclination to use force to make those you disagree with, value you as much as you seem to value you.

"There is no one stopping you" I'm not familiar with what argument you are presenting. That said it seems you are bringing out that tired and false argument of freedom equals slavery again.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do what you want to other people, it only applies to yourself, when you act against someone else's will you aren't engaging in unbound freedom, but you are now practicing oppression.
 

David_TheMan

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Snowden is a traitor.

Hillary is the next POTUS.

shyts different.

I know people in government as staffers, trust me. The government ain't THAT corrupt. People are scared to have others pay for their salads and shyt. And people get caught all the time. I reject your specious investigation.

Whats this got to do with libertarianism?

And there are measures in place to fix this.

The system only works if we make it. Coming up with terms and utopia ideas like libertarianism not only doesn't fix things, it avoids having to be responsible for living in that society.



Oh, so you're not an anarchist...yet you keep pushing anarchy.

shyt is different how? Because one person is politically connected nd the other isnt? And you want people to take you serious when you talk about reforming the system, when just now you defend a system that applies law to those who are politically connected and those who aren't differently. You just killed your own argument.

I don't care who you know, the actions of the US government show it is beyond corrupt and has been since its very creation.

It has nothing to do with libertarianism, and everything to do with your comment that the US is supposedly uncorrupt.

What measures are in place to fix these problems, electing Clinton, which you seem to support, who is in favor of even more corporatism, who is in favor of more warmongering and illegal international violence?

The system works fine, even though it has never worked fine for the vast majority of americans? You talk about me being a utopian when I admit and accept that there are a$$holes in this world but that those a$$holes should have authority over what they own and who they interact with, yet here you are actively arguing for consolidate monopolistic power in the hands of a few who use it to ignore the law of the land, engage in violence against other domestically and internationally, and who act hypocritically.

I must say, in this post you have provided the perfect eample of everything wrong with the state and those who support it.

How am I not a anarchist? Like I said, its clear you dont know what anarchy is, anarchy is against the state, not against voluntary government. Think of it like this. You join a church, you submit yourself voluntarily to the leadership at that church. There are no violence or threat of violence to get you to obey the leadership, rules, and regulations. You willingly submit yourself to that government of the body.

That is the difference between government (which comes in many forms) and the state, (form of government with monopoly of violence in a geographic area and monopoly of dispute management via its justice system). If you are still confused I can send you some books that might help you out.
 

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Bigots have the right to be bigots as long as they don't enfringe on the rights of others. I see no problem with that.
I do see though that you have the inclination to use force to make those you disagree with, value you as much as you seem to value you.

"There is no one stopping you" I'm not familiar with what argument you are presenting. That said it seems you are bringing out that tired and false argument of freedom equals slavery again.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do what you want to other people, it only applies to yourself, when you act against someone else's will you aren't engaging in unbound freedom, but you are now practicing oppression.
and libertarianism doesn't include the mechanisms to prevent egregious practices in that regard.

Your own definitions of freedom include the very restraint of the laws you take for granted.
 

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shyt is different how? Because one person is politically connected nd the other isnt? And you want people to take you serious when you talk about reforming the system, when just now you defend a system that applies law to those who are politically connected and those who aren't differently. You just killed your own argument.

I don't care who you know, the actions of the US government show it is beyond corrupt and has been since its very creation.

It has nothing to do with libertarianism, and everything to do with your comment that the US is supposedly uncorrupt.

What measures are in place to fix these problems, electing Clinton, which you seem to support, who is in favor of even more corporatism, who is in favor of more warmongering and illegal international violence?

The system works fine, even though it has never worked fine for the vast majority of americans? You talk about me being a utopian when I admit and accept that there are a$$holes in this world but that those a$$holes should have authority over what they own and who they interact with, yet here you are actively arguing for consolidate monopolistic power in the hands of a few who use it to ignore the law of the land, engage in violence against other domestically and internationally, and who act hypocritically.

I must say, in this post you have provided the perfect eample of everything wrong with the state and those who support it.

How am I not a anarchist? Like I said, its clear you dont know what anarchy is, anarchy is against the state, not against voluntary government. Think of it like this. You join a church, you submit yourself voluntarily to the leadership at that church. There are no violence or threat of violence to get you to obey the leadership, rules, and regulations. You willingly submit yourself to that government of the body.

That is the difference between government (which comes in many forms) and the state, (form of government with monopoly of violence in a geographic area and monopoly of dispute management via its justice system). If you are still confused I can send you some books that might help you out.
I believe in the potential of the current system.

I believe the current system needs more people who are enthusiastic enough to make the current system work better.
 

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Calling something corrupt and broken in its very design and saying we need something new and presenting something new is what i've done. So I really don't understand your first paragraph, because that isn't what i've done and you know that, if you've actually read what I posted. Fact of the matter is the system is doing what it is designed to do, you talk about fixing it, it isn't broken so until you come to the realization that the very system you want control of leads to the negative effects you are living through now, nothing will change.

I told you how the security will be paid for, by those who want it with currency. Its very simple.

Privatize security is an answer to monopoly, because you have different vendors to come in the market to compete. That is the point of privatizing and having competition for the anacap.

Nothing prevents abuse, like laws don't prevent crime, the only thing we want is to limit the ability to remedy abuse, and hold those accountable. It is easier to hold private security accountable because they aren't a monopoly, because they don't run every aspect of the process because they don't have full control of investigating their own actions than any other alternative.

Its pie in the sky to say we need to stop doing the same thing with the same results if we want different outcomes, but it isn't when you claim we can fix this with the processes put in place by those in power, which hasn't worked since these processes have been talked about. I think you are projecting.

Yet private policing existed in environments without government policing and its documented in the very link I presented to you, as well as with regard for the wild west and the private security offered there, and in the case of the Wild West, it provided greater security, less violence than the US in the East during teh same period.

Who said anything about bartering, you literally have to pull up things no one said to knock down, because you can't logically construct an actual argument.

Why should i admit someting you want, when i don't believe in that, and i have told you what i'm in favor of? That literally makes no sense. It is if you have given up, but you want me to agree that you are right so you can save face. Very strange.

Self interest is what drives the creation of societal norms and customs, and these have very little to do with an outside body with a monopoly of force imposing them.

What do the US marshalls or sheriffs have to do with what i actually argued? Absolutely nothing.

Self-interest doesn't mean selfish, nice attempt to play on words and by the connotation shift game, but I see through it. If we were to hold your logic constant, you would tell us the "golden rule", do unto others as you would have them do unto, is selfish. No its self-interest of those that follow it.

I have no want to make the state as small as possible, I would like to see the state cease to exist. Again read what i've written instead of arguing with the man inside your head.

I said a new process of enforcing norms, whcih is through more voluntaryist means. Honoring that a person has full control of their property, which means their income, body, land, and etc. Enforcing norms through more ostracization and contract and government via contracting more than monopoly of force through the state.

The law doesn't stop lawbreakers though, and if it had a disincentive effect, it would definitely show up with regard to capital crimes, yet historically studies on the effect of capital crimes show they do not have any disincentivizing effect.

Poor people, rich people, middle class people get nothing but what they work for and buy or what others give them voluntarily.


Oh ok...so fires won't get put out in the hood, and in your words "self-interest doesn't mean selfish"...to even think I wouldn't pick up on that is a slap in the face.
 

David_TheMan

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and libertarianism doesn't include the mechanisms to prevent egregious practices in that regard.

Your own definitions of freedom include the very restraint of the laws you take for granted.

Doesn't include mechanism to prevent what?
If you only have authority over your own property, what extra needs to be in place?
If you violate others property there are methods to move, if you dont then nothing has been done, yet you want to force people to think your way with threat of force for thinking improperly, and you act as if this is something people should want as if it is ideal application of force.

How does my definition of freedom include restraint of the law? That literally makes no sense, is this you speaking non-sense and hoping to get a pass again?
 

David_TheMan

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I believe in the potential of the current system.

I believe the current system needs more people who are enthusiastic enough to make the current system work better.
You believe in the potential of a system that is currently corrupt, in which those in power have always been immune from being subject to the law, and that despite over 200 years of existence with continuous movements to improve it, is just corrupt as ever, if not more so.

I asked you a question about the "right people" proposition, can you answer it?
If its all about the right people, why is it they can't get in those position and how did and why are the bad people who run the system so entrenched if as you claim the system is able to check itself?
 

David_TheMan

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Oh ok...so fires won't get put out in the hood, and in your words "self-interest doesn't mean selfish"...to even think I wouldn't pick up on that is a slap in the face.
Why wouldn't fires get put out in the hood?
I see you didn't address the golden rule point, typical.
:sas1:
 

David_TheMan

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The Golden Rule doesn't work in cities with millions of people that depend on the division of labor.

I didn't ask you about millions of people, you didn't respond to the fact that you using your logic the golden rule would be deemed as actually selfish. Do you still hold that self interest equals selfishness?
 

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You believe in the potential of a system that is currently corrupt, in which those in power have always been immune from being subject to the law, and that despite over 200 years of existence with continuous movements to improve it, is just corrupt as ever, if not more so.

I asked you a question about the "right people" proposition, can you answer it?
If its all about the right people, why is it they can't get in those position and how did and why are the bad people who run the system so entrenched if as you claim the system is able to check itself?
Theres politicians and officials getting cuffs put on them every day. Are you not paying attention to indictments?

And what "right people" proposition? Ask a clear, direct question. I can't follow with all this shyt you're typing and confusing yourself with.

Again, the process and system is hard. Its meant to be to ensure some degree of legitimacy against the test of time, but that doesn't change the level of interaction you're expected to have with it.
 

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Doesn't include mechanism to prevent what?
If you only have authority over your own property, what extra needs to be in place?
If you violate others property there are methods to move, if you dont then nothing has been done, yet you want to force people to think your way with threat of force for thinking improperly, and you act as if this is something people should want as if it is ideal application of force.

How does my definition of freedom include restraint of the law? That literally makes no sense, is this you speaking non-sense and hoping to get a pass again?

Laws that protect the infringement you place onto others, indirectly or not.

We can't keep playing this game where you keep abstracting to the point where you start pulling out tautologies.
 

Street Knowledge

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I'm not anti government. I'm pro good government and the efforts of maintaining government is hard work. Libertarians just keep using low brow arguments of abolition of responsibility and liability instead of investing in the process

I'm not anti government either, I just believe in limited government.

Basically IMO Government has only one role and that is to protect the rights of each individual resident. Specifically protect people from direct harm or force
 

David_TheMan

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Laws that protect the infringement you place onto others, indirectly or not.

We can't keep playing this game where you keep abstracting to the point where you start pulling out tautologies.
How can you infrange on others if you only have the recognized authority to control the things you own.
Again you talk about saving people, but your solution is to literally make a power that has the power to equally infringe on everyone with the strange logic that only if we are equal in government oppression , then we are free and equal and it is very strange.

We aren't playing any tautological games though, you issue a statement I reply. In this case I asked you a question and you refused to answer.
 

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I didn't ask you about millions of people, you didn't respond to the fact that you using your logic the golden rule would be deemed as actually selfish. Do you still hold that self interest equals selfishness?
In the rawest sense, self-interest equals selfishness. :ufdup:

You're just corrupted, in a sense, by the expectation by the society you've been raised by, to expect that self-interest, includes altruism...and it does not have to and to expect it to, is a miscalculation on your end.

Anything you expect, or demand, has been secured by law and the tradition of the experimentation in society since time-immemorial.

And the golden rule does not equal self-interest. If it did, you wouldn't have to make piecemeal, step-wise justifications of it.

Oh, and don't think that just because you have a community of people who agree with you and follow you, that it doesn't mean that you're still not just as irrational or unreasonable in your conclusion.

@TheDarceKnight Why do these guys sound like college sophomores who think they're being groundbreaking with introducing these abstractions as if they're rediscovering a wheel, thats not a wheel :troll:, but the wheel 2.0?
 
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