Adebisi_Said
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When did Magic become Lakers' best player?
- Thread starter murksiderock
- Start date
Probably 85-86, he was more 1b in 84 and 85 when Kareem was playing some great PS basketball especially for that age
He was kind of in a leash before 84 due to sharing ball handling duties with Norm Nixon, the 87 season was when he had no leash and it stayed that way until he retired
Bird was the more skilled player but Magic was the superior PS performer, that's even adjusting for defensive and team competition which I worked on recently for a ton of players. Magic had easy WC competition but brutal finals competition but still wound up 5-4 in the process. He was injured in one finals and had a choke job in another against a stacked Celtics squad, could have played better vs 83 76ers but otherwise there's not much to criticize Magic for in the finals.
Bird and his teams (who were very stacked, too stacked not to come away with more rings) could have done better particularly in the early 80s when they should have won almost all of 1980-1983 but came out with just 1 ring that they barely got (5 of the 7 games in the 1981 ECF were by 1 or 2 points), they could have at least met the 83 76ers (no shame losing to them) but got swept by the Bucks instead. It wasn't as bad from 84-87 with the 2 rings being par for the course, Bird was generally playing better in the PS during this stretch as well
Magic is also a better defender than his reputation would suggest, although neither him or Bird should be classified as two way players
I would rank Magic above Bird but both are on the lower end of the top 10 for me
He was kind of in a leash before 84 due to sharing ball handling duties with Norm Nixon, the 87 season was when he had no leash and it stayed that way until he retired
Bird was the more skilled player but Magic was the superior PS performer, that's even adjusting for defensive and team competition which I worked on recently for a ton of players. Magic had easy WC competition but brutal finals competition but still wound up 5-4 in the process. He was injured in one finals and had a choke job in another against a stacked Celtics squad, could have played better vs 83 76ers but otherwise there's not much to criticize Magic for in the finals.
Bird and his teams (who were very stacked, too stacked not to come away with more rings) could have done better particularly in the early 80s when they should have won almost all of 1980-1983 but came out with just 1 ring that they barely got (5 of the 7 games in the 1981 ECF were by 1 or 2 points), they could have at least met the 83 76ers (no shame losing to them) but got swept by the Bucks instead. It wasn't as bad from 84-87 with the 2 rings being par for the course, Bird was generally playing better in the PS during this stretch as well
Magic is also a better defender than his reputation would suggest, although neither him or Bird should be classified as two way players
I would rank Magic above Bird but both are on the lower end of the top 10 for me
Imyremeshaw
كن التغير الذي تريد أن تراه في العالم
Totally agree, you see a evolution of Magics game after norm nixon left, whereas Kareem and Worthy handled the half court game previously, magic starts to step up, it was perfect passing of the torch....
To me Magic and Kareem(who I consider GOAT) are my favorite players ever however looking back Bird was better than Magic all things considered, Magics lack of half court game compared to Jordan, Bird, Kareem, or even someone like Bernard King leave a bad taste in my mouth.....
Magic might have had the weakest half court game of all the GOATs but he had one of the absolute best full court games so it works out. I'm more high on his ability to raise his game (or at least be consistently) and his top tier intangibles to go along with being 6'9 than I am on his relatively (compared to other GOATs) underwhelming skillset
Imyremeshaw
كن التغير الذي تريد أن تراه في العالم
Literally this right here!!! Magic is a winner, bar none, with a healthy worthy I think the Lakers might of won 91 or at least made it hell of alot more competitive
Whereas Jordan, Kareem, Bird, and Lebron have all the accolades and the offensive and defensive pedigree (less so bird but his team defense was great)
People like Magic, Russell, Walton were winners bar none, and just know enough about the game to be on GOAT level......
1986-1987 Season . The mini sky hook he did to beat the Celtics in the finals further solidified it.
murksiderock
Superstar
This is dope and it makes sense...
I put alot of value on stars and superstars being able to rise to the occasion in the postseason. It's part of the reason I value Tony Parker so highly, he was better than given credit for in the regular season, but was consistently outstanding to a different degree in the playoffs. I can see how if Magic was consistently superior to Bird in the postseason, I get how that is why people rank him over Bird consistently, since while Bird was a better overall player, it wasn't like there was a massive gap between the two. If one excels to a different degree in the playoffs that can make up the difference and then some...
murksiderock
Superstar
Interesting write up. But bringing up Bird's stacked team is interesting.
Could you describe his rookie year? They had a massive win total jump, with the only difference being that Nate Archibald was healthier in 1980 (he missed games in 79 I believe).
murksiderock
Superstar
There seemed to be a strong consensus, both in replies found on here abd what I could find scouring the web, that Magic was a superior playoff performer, enough so that it justifies the higher ranking Magic normally gets over Bird...
I think both were All-Time floor-raisers...
I'm not one who really uses "stacked team" arguments aside from saying, the squad with the significant talent advantage pretty much always, always wins aside from '11 and '04 (and actually the Bucks were heavy favorites over Boston in '74, it's hard to see a huge talent discrepancy so part of me wonders if Kareem alone is why the odds were so high in Mke's favor). When the squad with the heavy favor and/or talent advantage loses, it's a significant hit to that side, more than it is a boost to the underdog side. But other than that acknowledgement, I don't really like the "stacked team" thing because nearly all championship teams in NBA history featured multiple Hall players...
What I will say is it does affect how certain championships are viewed, particularly when juxtaposed to what elite players can or can't do when they don't have that stacked team. See: Kevin Durant, a guy who aside from a 3-year run as part of the most talented team of that time, has failed to live up to the standards other great players, from Hakeem to LeBron to Steph to Duncan to other historical titans set before him. It justifiably knocks Durant down a notch on the board, other guys showed not only could they also thrive with more around them, they could do more with less than Durant has ever shown, for all of his talent...
In the Magic/Bird case, once Kareem really started sliding after '86, the Lakers collectively were closer to the pack and Magic in particular showcased that he was big enough to fill those large shoes of responsibility, and as others mentioned upthread, you gotta think Magic always had this ability but had to temper it some. Bird had stacked teams and never really showed he could win without the heavy talent advantage. It's not something I think of as a negative but comparing him to others like Magic I think its a justifiable point to bring up...