Who ranks higher , Timmy or Kobe ?
- Thread starter bucks3115
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Oh, now it's voter fatigue and NARRATIVES. Bron stans are the most intellectually dishonest group of fans in NBA HISTORY.
Let get this straight, narratives are involved when Tim Duncan doesn't when FMVP but that's impossible when Shaq wins it over Kobe 3 times or Steph loses it to Durant 2 times.
Either Duncan won the FMVP and proved he was #1 or he didn't and thus wasn't the #1 for that season.
Kobe was better than Shaq in arguably 2001 and definitely 2002. But because Kobe didn't win FMVP it's automatically assumed by Bron stans that Kobe was #2. Same with Steph.
Lol at this fool trying to save face. @cobra was talking about beating the Heat and you're talking about Kobe being on the Heat. You certainly don't fit the stereotype of Jews being intellectual sharp. You all caps using imbecileNO .. I JUST COUNTERED WIT SOMETHING GREATER, WHICH WENT OVER YOUR HEAD
DIRK BEAT THE HEAT.. WHAT MAKES ANYONE THINK KOBE COULDNT
If you were trying to counter with a "greater" point, then when @cobra responded to you you wouldn't have said this:
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If the East was shytty, then the West was strong, no? Wouldn't that mean the Spurs had to go through a strong West to win it all?
West was strong but the Lakers were dead tired from a 3 peat. Only won 50 games that season. What happened the next year revamped lakers beat them again. TD did his thing in 03 but people wanna excuse 01 and 02 for TD because his “team was trash” or injuries well how is fatigue not an excuse for the Lakers after 3 straight title runs through a strong west.
In 2004 second round the Spurs were up 2-0 and lost 4 straight with TD playing like trash the whole time. In the 4 losses he shot under 40% three times. It’s not like Kobe who’s shooting from the perimeter TD was shooting most of his shots close to the basket and clanking.
TD gets passes for so much shyt. Kobe loses a 3-1 lead with a trash squad as a #7 seed Vs a #2 and it’s held against him. TD was out here losing 2-0 leads to the Lakers, losing with HCA several times in his career and lose to a 8 seed in the first round and people gloss over it.
As a team, sure. Mostly due to variance than anything else.
It’s also a team defending a title. Not a player.
So it makes zero sense to attribute repeating to any one guy.
Also, this is a worthless argument because it’s not a predictive metric of greatness in any way whatsoever. It’s a narrative argument that’s subjective and made up.
Kobe stans in shambles
BlueHeffner
Veteran
Only on the coli is Duncan >> Kobe a thing
I promise you, the masses dont think this way
I promise you, the masses dont think this way
Dallas' 4 Eva
Superstar
Timothy Theodore Duncan
this thread is a Stan wars thread in disguise. All the Bron Stans posted up in here 
murksiderock
Superstar
Bruh Duncan was not the best player on the '14 Spurs. Right around 2011-12, and maybe sooner but CERTAINLY that season at the latest, the Spurs offense was almost solely thru Parker. He became their closer on a full time basis, which is strictly contrasted from the near decade-and-a-half prior when Duncan was the fulcrum of the Spur O AND their closer...
Those Comeback Spurs of 2011-14 was Parker as best player on the team, all the impact metrics support that as well as the MVP and All-NBA voting of those years. More importantly, watching the Spurs those 3 years underscored this, that was Peak Parker; their dead period of Finals appearances from 2007 to 2013 was the transition phase of the team becoming less Duncan centric and Parker maturing into a larger role of responsibility. Obviously, it goes without saying that there were other factors and roster revamping, but one if the strong factors in that Finals drought was Duncan's decline and Parker's ascension into a #1 option...
All that said, there is no disagreement from me that the Spurs were ALWAYS Duncan's team, the same way the Heat were always Wade and the Dubs were always Steph's. Parker was good in the '13 Finals, I've recounted many times how he's my second favorite player ever and I was rooting for SA in that series; that game-winner over LeBron in G1 had my hype than a muhfukka. But we are also in full agreement that had they won that championship, Duncan was winning that FMVP...
Parker was the best player on the team wire-to-wire in '13 bit Duncan was SA's best player in those Finals...
Parker will likely never get the respect he deserves, and I'm about to make a separate thread on this. His Comeback Spurs run of 2011-14 are nearly equivalent numbers to Zeke's 1987-90 run, both guys peak-for-peak, but Zeke is held in a completely different stratosphere of credibility and it doesn't register well with me. I didn't see Zeke play but I have a hard time believing there was the canyon of a difference between the two as players, Tony was like that...
Bruh, there was no great debate in the early 00s about who the best player on the Lakers was. I don't even know where this comes from other than this persistent desire to heighten Kobe to a degree he wasn't yet at...
He was developing quickly by the year but Shaq and Duncan were the two guys in contention for best player in the world for a 5-year stretch post-Jordan until '03. Mailman may have been in the convo that first post-Mike year, and certainly in the early 00s Kobe, AI, KG, and Mac were all in that "best players in the world" mix but there was no quandary on who LA's best player was...
The other thing is, the winner of the FMVP has historically been the team's best player, but there are aberrations. Hondo wasn't the C's best player in '74 (and he should have won it in '69 as he was the C's best player that series and that season);
JoJo White wasn't the C's best player in '76; Unseld certainly wasn't the Bullets best player in '78 (and Big E is another of these guys who is criminally forgotten about within The Culture); DJ wasn't the best player for thr '79 Sonics; Magic wasn't the Lakers best player on the '80 Lakers; and so on...
The Finals MVP didn't even start consistently going to the best player of the winning team until '91, with Mike and Dream's titles, so certainly before the 90s there was never this narrative that the best player on the winning team had to win it; it was basically an MOP of The Finals only award...
Not a single person thinks Iguodala was the best player on the '15 Warriors, nor that he even had the best series. No one in real time thought Kawhi was the '14 Spurs best player...
I've only seen a handful of Bron supporters on here make a FMVP argument against Kobe, and it's flaw. Kobe not being the Lakers' #1 those years is irrespective of him winning FMVP or not...
I wouldn't bet on this. Kobe is more people's favorite player of the two but better is more of a draw in my experience...
This is one of the biggest Pro-Kobe boards online, probably the biggest one that isn't a specific Laker site, and most people here are favoring Duncan...
You're confusing two different things. Finals MVP and being the team's best player are not always the same. I've always said that Steph was the most important player for the Warriors in the 2015 Finals and that it was a toss-up between him and Durant in the 2017 and 2018 Finals. And I've said the main reason Steph didn't win Finals MVP in 17/18 was because the Cavs' defense focused on Steph rather than focusing on KD.
Shaq was the more essential player for the Lakers during the 2000-2002 stretch and that's undeniable. That's not just because he performed far better than Kobe in the 2000 Finals, 2001 Finals, and 2002 Finals and earned his unanimous Finals MVP every time, it's also because he finished far ahead of Kobe in MVP voting every year (accumulating 142 1st-place MVP votes in 3 years compared to just 1 total vote for Kobe), and because Shaq outperformed Kobe in the two closest series they had, the 2000 WCF and the 2002 WCF. It's indisputable breh and everyone agrees, sorry.
Nonsense. Are you going to claim Larry Bird wasn't the best player on the Celtics in 1981 or that Magic wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 1988 or that Steph wasn't the best player on the Warriors in 2015? Just stupid talk.
Not. Even. Close.
Shaq: 27.2 / 10.7 / 3.0 on 58% shooting and 2 blocks/game
Kobe: 25.2 / 5.5 / 5.5 on 47% shooting and 1.5 steals/game
Shaq got 15 votes for 1st-place MVP, 696 points total
Kobe got 1 vote for 1st-place MVP, 98 points total
Shaq got 125 1st-team All-NBA votes
Kobe got 72 1st-team All-NBA votes (far fewer than Jason Kidd's 115 and also losing some 1st-team votes to Gary Payton and Allen Iverson)
If you care about advanced stats, Shaq led in EVERY one. Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, Offensive BPM, Defensive BMP, Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, and Value Over Replacement - literally every single one has Shaq ahead on both sides.
So in the regular season it was indisputable. How about the playoffs?
Shaq: 28.5 / 12.6 / 2.8 on 53% shooting and 2.5 blocks/game
Kobe: 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 43% shooting and 1.4 steals/game
Once again, Shaq led on every single advanced stat on both sides of the court, and by even bigger margins than the regular season
Finals?
Shaq: 36.3 / 12.3 / 3.8 on 60% shooting and 2.8 blocks/game
Kobe: 26.8 / 5.8 / 5.3 on 51% shooting and 1.5 steals/game
Western Conference Finals, the Lakers' only competitive series that year?
Shaq: 30.3 / 13.6 / 1.6 on 53% and 2.4 blocks/game
Kobe 27.1 / 6.3 / 3.9 on 42% and 1.4 steals/game
Shaq was better in the regular season, better in the postseason, better in the biggest playoff series and better in the FInals. Both regular season and playoffs he had better stats, better advanced stats, and better recognition from the voters.
Time to give this one up breh. Kobe has always had the fan love, that's how he got to the 1998, 2014, 2015, and 2016 All-Star games. He's never lacked for that fan support. But objectively he's no Shaq and he's no Duncan.