Why are predominately black countries mostly poor? in your opinion

[theworldismine13]

fuq the god emperor and fuq dj hamma. and if you down with the hiphop nation, fuq you too

freddie joachim fuq you too

you'll come around

 

[Primordial]

but the same dynamic applies today, its not just about leaders at the top, its about having technocrats to run the bureaucracy, haiti being an essentially illiterate society limited the amount of wealth that could be created in modern economy and it limited the number of peope with the technical knowledge to run a government

my thesis wasnt on how to improve literacy rates

my thesis is that in the modern economy literacy rates and capitalism are the main determinant of a societies or country's wealth

We can agree to disagree on the point about the impact of the leaders at the top. From the perspective of a developed nation your theory makes sense

but most ppl that have lived or experienced life in an underdeveloped nation with a weak government realize that any significant improvement in education and capitalism comes from the leaders at the top, then everything else trickles down. Therefore, it is all about the leaders at the top.

there are many roads that lead to literacy and capitalism, the country or society has to pick one, and they have to decide if those things are even important, as you can see a lot of black people dont even think literacy and capitalism are important

not even gonna touch that

yeah we should ignore that, because there are many nations that have been destabilized but still are relatively wealthy

Can you name a few of these countries. Destabilized = coups, fomenting disorder, political assassinations, etc. It would be interesting to compare why those countries fared better than others

Maybe they kept it classy?

why dont you guide me step by step through your logic on what this is suppose to mean, cuz im confused, you just provided evidence for my thesis, countries and societies that focus on literacy and capitalism get rich

south korea is a perfect example of that, it has no resources, it went through a devastating civil war and its technically occupied by a foreign nation, it was colonized and oppressed by japan for 50 years before that, but yet somehow they are an economic powerhouse today

and its because its a society that focuses on literacy and capitalism, countries like korea and japan have a blue print that black nations should follow

My point being is that South Korea, which has been around for at least 4-5 more centuries than countries like Haiti, had a literacy rate of 22% in the 1940s. South Koreans did not just start reading novels and become an economic powerhouse overnight. It's been heavily documented how their dictator implemented policies that built the strong academic/capitalist institutions that allowed for the growth of education/ecomony to foster and build its literacy rate/economy. I'm not well-versed in Japanese history, but I wouldn't be surprised if a similar experience happened during the Meiji restoration when they went from a feudal society to a world power in a century.

Another example is Saudi Arabia:

"In 1970, the literacy rate for Saudi Arabian boys was 15 percent, for girls a mere 2 percent."
"In 2013, : Saudi Arabia has achieved a remarkable literacy rate of 96 per cent with religious institutions playing a crucial role."

"Paucity of funds particularly in the sector of education is commonplace and is felt globally. This makes choice to pursue education limited for the students in several nations.
In the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia the situation is however quite different. The late King Abdul Aziz had a vision since he had founded the Kingdom focusing on the need of education as means to development.
His successive sons have well followed this tradition and pursued plans promoting education as key to the country’s development.
The Kingdom is truly committed toward building the nation and caring for its citizens, and education has been a top priority for the last five decades. By investing in its human capital, the Kingdom ensures lasting growth and a knowledge-based economy."

Point being that literacy rates and capitalism can be improved at the hands of a single leader strong-arming policies and allowing academic institutions to grow and develop. My point is that Africa and the diaspora had similar leaders during the 1960s-80s who were either assassinated, overthrown, were puppets etc , which derailed any similar progress they could have made.

An economics major can break down EOI and what Chung Hee and other the East Asian leaders were doing to build their economy, but it was not and is not feasible for the majority of African/Caribbean nations, but that's another discussion for another day.

But then again, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. You say literacy rate is the key to success, but don't really offer a clear strategy or solution. I'm saying that one solution is a strong leader with dictatorial powers that can single-handedly improve literacy in most underdeveloped nations.

the history of black people did not start with colonialism anymore then it started with slavery, i think you are trying to answer the question of how colonialism impacted development, which is a fine question and a good discussion

but the question was asked why are black people poor? and IMO to answer that question you cant look at just colonialism, you have to look at why african countries were colonized in the first place, specifically why did the african fall to the european, that is a more fundemantal question then the question of post colonial development

when we understand why we fell to the european then we will understand why we are poor and we will understand how to correct our mistakes

Good point. U see it with China and Japan. Africa and the diaspora needs to take that same approach.

and im still waiting to hear the defense of haitain leaders post toussaint

Read about Haiti's economy pre-Duvalier and post-Duvalier regime. Read about the U.S. occupation and constant intervention of Haiti and its impact. Read about the blockade that the U.S. and Western Europe placed on Haiti after their independence, then read how the Haitian economy still rebounded in the 1960s-1970s. Like I said, don't believe the hype.The only defense you should be hearing is from the U.S. government on why they thought that it is acceptable to remove a democratically elected leader from his home country and dump him in the Central African Rebublic after demanding France pay back reparations.

I suspect this thread starter, thread and the ones answering on the first page all to be plants.

this thread is wild man.

jumping straight into IQ and education, rather than oppression, resource theft and political sabotage, as well as a very racist banking system and culturally bias and bought off UN security council (see Palestine)

Said person tried to compare Japan and Korea, 2 countries whom have never been colonized, to Africa. That right there was a hint of ignorance.

This right here is 100% truth. They are asking for reasons why most predominately black countries are poor, but are either dismissing or marginalizing the impact that resource theft or political sabotage (which does have a direct effect on literacy rates in countries without solid institutions) has on the growth of these nations. Gotta be trolling at this point.





oh and @theworldismine13 if the literacy rate is the one thing holding Africa back, can you explain North Korea?

"Education in North Korea. Education in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) is universal and state funded schooling by the government. The national literacy rate for citizens 15 years of age and older is over 99 percent."

 

[theworldismine13]

We can agree to disagree on the point about the impact of the leaders at the top. From the perspective of a developed nation your theory makes sense

but most ppl that have lived or experienced life in an underdeveloped nation with a weak government realize that any significant improvement in education and capitalism comes from the leaders at the top, then everything else trickles down. Therefore, it is all about the leaders at the top.

im not sure what it is we are agreeing or disagreeing about, having good leaders are important, it doesn't contradict what im saying, in fact my point about haiti is that the illiteracy of the society as a whole limited the expertise and knowledge of the leadership pool

so my point is not the leadership isnt important, my point is that having a literate society is more fundamental

a lot of the leaders that yall are going on about and even your very own opinion go against what park was doing in korea, you guys look at education as something important, but you think of it as something that grows out of development, you guys think that africa will get control of its resources and then use that money to educate and develop

that is not what park did in korea, park was saying education IS development, period

leaders dont come out of nowhere, leaders are the products of their society, if you put somebody like tommyknocks as a dictator of nigeria and he implemented his popular plan of taking control of nigerian oil to develop nigeria, im asserting that that plan will fail, and that its a bad plan and a bad idea

i would assert that there is 100x more money in formalizing the nigerian informal sector and have people paying taxes than there is an all the oil in nigeria, this is what park understood and a lot of black people, including black leaders dont understand

not even gonna touch that

why not, just looking at this thread as an example of it, if you make a thread saying its important to go to college, i can bet you half the motherfukers in this thread will write an essay on why college isnt important and they can make money in other ways, i know this for a fact cuz ive seen it with my own eyes

and the majority of motherfukers in this thread have denounced capitalism and say that the key is resources

a lot of the people see resources as the key to progress, and education as being a by product of progress and capitalism as a pain in the ass

Can you name a few of these countries. Destabilized = coups, fomenting disorder, political assassinations, etc. It would be interesting to compare why those countries fared better than others

Maybe they kept it classy?

yeah pretty much every country in the western hemisphere, the same games the cia was playing africa were the exact same games it was playing in the americas

lets look at dominican republic, dr is poor, been invaded multiple times by the us, haiti had duvalier, dr had truijillo, and when a leftist bosch was about to win an election the us invaded and installed balaguer,a trujillo acolyte and essentially another dictator

so the same fukery going in haiti was going in dr, dr is still poor, but why is it richer than haiti, why is it that most west indian countries are doing better than haiti and yet have the same history of colonialism, why do english speaking former colonies tend to have better economies than french speaking former colonies?

IMO the levels of literacy and capitalism explain the differences

My point being is that South Korea, which has been around for at least 4-5 more centuries than countries like Haiti,

lets stop right here, because when i point out things like this people call me names

of course south korea being homogenous and having a culture that goes back centuries helped them, but park is a product of that

why do you bring up centuries of korean history and not talk about centuries of haitian history, why do we pretend that hatian history started with their independence, haitian history goes back to when african people fell to europeans, it goes back to the rise and fall of kingdoms and peoples in west africa

in other words the problems you see in haiti (of weak institutions, illiteracy) did not start with colonialism, the origins of the problems go back to africa

ask yourself a basic question, right after Independence what language do you suggest the haitians would have used to become literate? the only languages with a writing system available to them were european languages

South Koreans did not just start reading novels and become an economic powerhouse overnight. It's been heavily documented how their dictator implemented policies that built the strong academic/capitalist institutions that allowed for the growth of education/ecomony to foster and build its literacy rate/economy. I'm not well-versed in Japanese history, but I wouldn't be surprised if a similar experience happened during the Meiji restoration when they went from a feudal society to a world power in a century.

yes, that is true and the japanese did the same thing during the mejii restoration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration

but i fail to see how that helps your point, it simply bolsters my point that literacy and capitalism are the key

Point being that literacy rates and capitalism can be improved at the hands of a single leader strong-arming policies and allowing academic institutions to grow and develop. My point is that Africa and the diaspora had similar leaders during the 1960s-80s who were either assassinated, overthrown, were puppets etc , which derailed any similar progress they could have made.

you guys arent saying that literacy and capitalism are the key, you guys are saying that ending racism and colonialism and other isms are the key, then you want to take control of the resources and then you plan to use money from the resources for development and education

that isnt what the koreans and japanese did, according to them education WAS development, they never got rid of racism since they themselves are very racist, when they are not promoting their own superiority they are promoting white superiority, they never got rid of colonialism since they have been occupied by the united states till this day and their whole economies are dependent on the us

on top of that a lot of a lot of the leaders you all are crying about from lumumba to nkrumah were marxists, and so even if they had implemented their marxist visions the economy would have been a disaster just like every other marxist economy

i would agree that its possible that if some of the leaders hadnt been taken some africans would be better of, not because they would have developed more but simply because they would have had stronger institutions, but overall african countries would still have been poor, unless there was a movement toward literacy and capitalism

and even the progress we see today in african countries is almost solely because of increase in literacy and capitalism

An economics major can break down EOI and what Chung Hee and other the East Asian leaders were doing to build their economy, but it was not and is not feasible for the majority of African/Caribbean nations, but that's another discussion for another day.

But then again, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. You say literacy rate is the key to success, but don't really offer a clear strategy or solution. I'm saying that one solution is a strong leader with dictatorial powers that can single-handedly improve literacy in most underdeveloped nations.

yeah,

the question was asked why are black people so poor and i answered, literacy and capitalism, because those factors explain the distribution of global wealth

i was definitely not offering a strategy to achieve literacy and or capitalism, because there are many ways to achieve that

having a dictator that violates individual rights is one solution i suppose, i assume you dont plan in living in that country and its weird that you support that considering you just wrote an essay complaining about the us installing dictators, i guess you want some kind of benevolent dictator

i would prefer a more gradual democratic way that respects individual freedom

Read about Haiti's economy pre-Duvalier and post-Duvalier regime. Read about the U.S. occupation and constant intervention of Haiti and its impact. Read about the blockade that the U.S. and Western Europe placed on Haiti after their independence, then read how the Haitian economy still rebounded in the 1960s-1970s. Like I said, don't believe the hype.The only defense you should be hearing is from the U.S. government on why they thought that it is acceptable to remove a democratically elected leader from his home country and dump him in the Central African Rebublic after demanding France pay back reparations.

i have studied that, and again, im not even talking about the 20th century, im talking about the leaders post toussaint, the fact that haiti was an illiterate society meant that the pool of leaders was weak and were subject to the same weaknesses the people of west africa had in competing with the european

my point is you cant just study colonialism if you want to understand things, instead of just asking why the us and europe put a blockade in haiti, we need to ask where did the us and europe get the power to put a blockade on haiti in the first place

if you want to know why haitians are poor you have to go back and study the rise and fall empires of west africa pre colonialism and why the people of west africa fell to the european, those factors still existed in haiti after independence

This right here is 100% truth. They are asking for reasons why most predominately black countries are poor, but are either dismissing or marginalizing the impact that resource theft or political sabotage (which does have a direct effect on literacy rates in countries without solid institutions) has on the growth of these nations. Gotta be trolling at this point.

i am definitely minimizing the impact of resource theft and political sabotage because those things arent a good determinant of wealth in a modern global economy

oh and @theworldismine13 if the literacy rate is the one thing holding Africa back, can you explain North Korea?

"Education in North Korea. Education in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) is universal and state funded schooling by the government. The national literacy rate for citizens 15 years of age and older is over 99 percent."

why are you putting words in my mouth? i never said literacy is the only thing holding africa back

what i said is that black people are poor because of low levels of literacy (and education) and low levels of capitalism and those two factors are consistent throughout africa and the african diaspora

if anything NK just proves my point, countries like cuba and north korea crawl along and survive with disastrous economies because of their high literacy rates, in fact i think in the first page or second page i gave props to castro because the first thing he did as a dictator was create a 100% literacy program

 

[Dion Isus]

@theworldismine13, what's your take on the situation in Zimbabwe?

 

[theworldismine13]

@theworldismine13, what's your take on the situation in Zimbabwe?

I was hoping nobody would bring that up cuz apparently Zimbabwe has a high literacy rate , but then again zimbabwe has been holding up well in certain ways like Cuba in North Korea so it would show why Mugabe has survived

One thing to remember is that Mugabe's giving away land isn't necessarily anti capitalist, since the land taken is still privately owned, and from what I understand some parts of agriculture have recovered despite sanctions becuase the new owners have made it work

So if the sanctions were dropped and Mugabe would rest in peace it would seem Zimbabwe would have a lot of potential if capitalism and investments were allowed to flourish

 

[BigMan]

I agree with the literacy point. Personally i think if Haiti had higher literacy rates (both in Kreyol and French), corruption would lessen, unemployment would lower, and the country would be a little more stable

 

[Poitier]

I agree with the literacy point. Personally i think if Haiti had higher literacy rates (both in Kreyol and French), corruption would lessen, unemployment would lower, and the country would be a little more stable

The latter would have to come before the former which is why "literacy" is a dumb talking point.

 

[BigMan]

The latter would have to come before the former which is why "literacy" is a dumb talking point.

not necessarily, there a countries with high literacy rates that aren't necessarily politically stable

 

[Poitier]

not necessarily, there a countries with high literacy rates that aren't necessarily politically stable

So that should tell you that literacy isn't it.

A strong leader, strong institutions (hospitals, accessible water and sanitation, schools, military and police, public media, art/museums, banking, libraries, athletics), strong family units and SOCIAL capitalism all have to be occurring. Selling of raw commodities is definitely enough to do this but you have to have strong leaders. A people with literacy and capitalism can still be a society with low life expectancy, food dependency, separatist movements and no national identity.

 

[BigMan]

So that should tell you that literacy isn't it.

A strong leader, strong institutions (hospitals, accessible water and sanitation, schools, military and police, public media, art/museums, banking, libraries, athletics), strong family units and SOCIAL capitalism all have to be occurring. Selling of raw commodities is definitely enough to do this but you have to have strong leaders. A people with literacy and capitalism can still be a society with low life expectancy, food dependency, separatist movements and no national identity.

i know but in the case i presented, Haiti, universal literacy would be a big step forward. all of those things could be brought into the country and still you'd see a large gulf between the rich and poor if literacy is not there. a big example is that the majority of the nation can't understand one of its official language, French. A lot of politicians use this to trick the people. Literacy will help the lowest of the low get jobs and be able to hold the government more accountable.Haiti has a lot going for it but its class issues (among other things) have held it back. obviously not every country will have the same situation.

 

[Poitier]

i know but in the case i presented, Haiti, universal literacy would be a big step forward. all of those things could be brought into the country and still you'd see a large gulf between the rich and poor if literacy is not there. a big example is that the majority of the nation can't understand one of its official language, French. A lot of politicians use this to trick the people. Literacy will help the lowest of the low get jobs and be able to hold the government more accountable.Haiti has a lot going for it but its class issues (among other things) have held it back. obviously not every country will have the same situation.

I'd say health first, simply because thats a loss of talent if people are dying. Strong public media also counters your concerns of low literacy. Just my opinion. Regardless you need a strong and transparent leader or none of it matters.

 

[b. woods]

nikka take yo ugly ass on somewhere..

spreading that pseudo intellectual bullshyt..

smurf onion nose lookin ass nikka..

and @Poitier and @KOohbt is killing yall phaggys..

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Twism is mainly correct. Europeans were united in a common language and system of diplomacy which helped them rise to the top, Africans never were. Of course that is going to make them easier to conquer.

 

[Poitier]

Not know historical timelines brehs.

 

[theworldismine13]

I'd say health first, simply because thats a loss of talent if people are dying. Strong public media also counters your concerns of low literacy. Just my opinion. Regardless you need a strong and transparent leader or none of it matters.

i think even more imporant than health, is that we should establish world peace, feed all the hungry children of the world and save the whales, i think then we will have the proper platform to address black people's problems