we won't ignore them, we just won't see them through European eyes.
why do cac's keep saying "Nelson Mandela is a terrorist?"
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we won't ignore them, we just won't see them through European eyes.
Malik
Superstar
Are you serious? So because in your opinion there weren't "countries" in a European sense what? That makes the world Europe's?
The pillaging of Africa was okay because Africa didn't really have "countries" before 1884
myths like him heading the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party.
At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights
-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988
All just make believe huh? very well then...
So I see that you pasted this in from another right wing hack source. Explain how they were terrorists when under Mandela, they didn't attack any non-government targets nor did they kill any civilians? He also never pled guilty to killing anyone, because he didn't kill anyone. In fact, he wasn't even charged with killing anyone.
Anything that the MK did after Mandela was imprisoned doesn't count as his actions- he had no role in them nor could he have if you know anything about the conditions of his imprisonment. So why are you pasting in events that happened when he had already been in prison for decades?
And you avoided my entire last post. You posted a lie about Mandela admitting to signing off on the 1983 bombing and still haven't sourced it, just like the right wing racist hacks you copied and pasted from. Are you going to admit you fukked up? Or should we assume that your allegiance to right wing copy pasta outweighs your interest in objectivity? I thought you were better than this.
Meanwhile, I posted actual quotes and historical info about him and MK.
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The pillaging of Africa was okay because Africa didn't really have "countries" before 1884
that's correct, if they were smart enough to write a constitution, none of that pillaging mess would've happened.
8 years after the fact? Its not as if him coming out with a position was going to change anything or even make waves or news. His placement on the list did not mean there is some predilection on the part of the US to find him. Other members of the ANC like Tokyo Sexwale were on the list and he had trouble getting into the country. Mandela didnt need to do any horse trading to get his name off the list he was 90 when he was removed, the fact that he was on it in the first place was enough for them to remove it.
Malik
Superstar
Dude's a dumbass. The day that Africans or Arabs move to London and become the wealthy elite, wielding all of the economic and political power in England, while subjugating the white English population via discrimination, violence and oppression.....the day that happens he'll have a fukking point.
The way some white people act, you'd think that is happening.
From wiki:Disguising himself as a chauffeur, Mandela travelled the country incognito, organising the ANC's new cell structure and a mass stay-at-home strike for 29 May. Referred to as the "Black Pimpernel" in the press – a reference to Emma Orczy's 1905 novel The Scarlet Pimpernel – the police put out a warrant for his arrest.[97] Mandela held secret meetings with reporters, and after the government failed to prevent the strike, he warned them that many anti-apartheid activists would soon resort to violence through groups like the PAC'sPoqo.[98] He believed that the ANC should form an armed group to channel some of this violence, convincing both ANC leader Albert Luthuli – who was morally opposed to violence – and allied activist groups of its necessity.[99]
Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing.[100] Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh's flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution.[101] Although Mandela himself denied ever being a Communist Party member, historical research has suggested that he might have been for a short period, starting from the late 1950s or early 1960s.[102] Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism."[103] Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve.[104]
But wiki is known to be biased, so what sources do you suggest
The Americas were called Turtle Island before Columbus and his goons arrived to you know, name it something else?
Mandela wasn't a terrorist. The proponents of Apartheid were some vicious b*stards and needed killing.
Mandela wasn't a terrorist. The proponents of Apartheid were some vicious b*stards and needed killing.
Disguising himself as a chauffeur, Mandela travelled the country incognito, organising the ANC's new cell structure and a mass stay-at-home strike for 29 May. Referred to as the "Black Pimpernel" in the press – a reference to Emma Orczy's 1905 novel The Scarlet Pimpernel – the police put out a warrant for his arrest.[97] Mandela held secret meetings with reporters, and after the government failed to prevent the strike, he warned them that many anti-apartheid activists would soon resort to violence through groups like the PAC'sPoqo.[98] He believed that the ANC should form an armed group to channel some of this violence, convincing both ANC leader Albert Luthuli – who was morally opposed to violence – and allied activist groups of its necessity.[99]
Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing.[100] Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh's flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution.[101] Although Mandela himself denied ever being a Communist Party member, historical research has suggested that he might have been for a short period, starting from the late 1950s or early 1960s.[102] Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism."[103] Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve.[104]
But wiki is known to be biased, so what sources do you suggest
This is accurate. Mandela formed the group in 1961, when he had militant views, then was arrested just 8 months afterwards. Notice how they only resorted to violence as a last resort, with great hesitation, as the quote I posted above indicates. Also notice that they did not target civilians, but only governmental and administrative structures, and actually went the opposite route and did their best to minimize casualties all around, including for the very people they were opposing. That means that they were not a terrorist group by any definition, even if they did resort to militant tactics.
Second, once Mandela was arrested, he had no more control over the group, due to the conditions of his imprisonment. Furthermore, by the end of the 1960s, he was already giving up the idea that militant campaigns were necessary. So while the MK did carry out other attacks, some of which injured and killed civilians, during that period and through the 80s, Mandela had nothing to do with them. That's why that list you posted, with all the attacks from the 1980s, can't be attributed to him.
And third, he never admitted to signing off on the 1983 bombing, in the sense of actually okaying it. What he did do was refuse to categorically denounce the MK, which is what the government wanted from him in exchange for his release, even though he didn't approve of what they had become, since he believed that to do so would be to completely disarm the movement and leave the ANC vulnerable to a military crackdown that would destroy it. That's why he says he felt personal responsibility for those attacks. He felt like he "signed off" on them by refusing to condemn the MK in general.
No one has claim(or i least i haven't) that he didnt try peace force, or that he didnt have to do what he did.
In fact I haven't even said it wasnt justified. i just said it was wrong, and labeled it terrorism.As far as the intention nonsense, its the same thing all terrorist say. Obama even uses it to drone other countries
its meaningless lip service. Seems fair, but being linked to something you birthed and helped shape seems fair to me as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree.its worth pointing out that: Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." <---is a quote.
It wasn't terrorism, though. Terrorism is the targeting of civilian populations in order to cause an atmosphere of widespread fear and panic among those civilians. They didn't target civilians, nor was it their goal to instill fear in the widespread population. They didn't even start out killing anyone, and went out of their way not to kill.
As far as the intention nonsense, its the same thing all terrorist say. Obama even uses it to drone other countries
It's not just intention, though. It's what they actually did. That's why Mandela was never charged with killing anyone. He didn't. That's also why that quote you pasted in about him pleading guilty to all those deaths in court was untrue. If they could have nailed him on charges related to killing people, they obviously would have, but they didn't even try.
its worth pointing out that: Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." <---is a quote.
Being linked is one thing, but saying that he was personally responsible and that he signed off on things the group was doing 20 years after he lost control over them is a bit ridiculous, isn't it? That's what those sites you were quoting from were trying to suggest.