Why Doesnt Jack Johnson Get The Props That Muhammad Ali Gets?

[NZA]

Disagree. I'd say popularity wise, they are about equal. I don't think you'll find one person out there who doesn't know either one of the two. I think the only thing that Ali may have over Ruth is that Ali is probably more internationally known by a long shot in comparison. Also, you point to an Ali quotable, but everyone knows the gesture of going up to the plate and pointing the bat into the bleachers, signifying that your going to hit a home run...that's a Babe Ruth signature move.

But I think you may be on something to simple promotion. Baseball media, has simply recycled Babe's legacy for decades. It's a seasonal sport, so I think promotions have to be strong for a specific time in the year; so they consistently remind us of the history year after year of it having a "pass time" legacy with guys like Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle etc etc.

i would bet that a lot of people dont even know where that gesture comes from

also, google search results has "muhammad ali" at 95,800,000 results and "babe ruth" at 25,800,000 results. people talk way more about ali than babe

 

[filial_piety]

i would bet that a lot of people dont even know where that gesture comes from

also, google search results has "muhammad ali" at 95,800,000 results and "babe ruth" at 25,800,000 results. people talk way more about ali than babe

I don't think it matters if people know where it comes from more so than how many people are familiar with the gesture.

Also, search results are arbitrary. "Transformers" yields 105,000,000 results to Muhammad Ali's 95,000,000. I hardly think more people know what Transformers are compared to who Muhammad Ali is on a simple search result; nor do I think the quote "Robots in disguise" is more popularly known than "float like a butterfly.."

 

[Originalman]

i think all his white women were prostitutes as well.

Yes all the women he dated and married were prostitutes.

 

[filial_piety]

Yes all the women he dated and married were prostitutes.

One of his wives was a high end socialite. Etta Duryea. She ended up committing suicide though.

 

[NZA]

I don't think it matters if people know where it comes from more so than how many people are familiar with the gesture.

Also, search results are arbitrary. "Transformers" yields 105,000,000 results to Muhammad Ali's 95,000,000. I hardly think more people know what Transformers are compared to who Muhammad Ali is on a simple search result; nor do I think the quote "Robots in disguise" is more popularly known than "float like a butterfly.."

it matters if we are talking about popularity or "relevance". if they dont know it's his then it is not really relevant to this discussion since this thread is about the people, not random, unsourced pop culture references that have become commonplace

they are not arbitrary, they are a piece of the "zeitgeist". a disparity to that degree cant be dismissed. ali really is more relevant than babe ruth. nobody even bothers comparing him to contemporary players like they compare ali to floyd. ruth also has no political significance and very little ethnic significance, which is also evidenced by his lack of search results in comparison to ali

your comparison of ali to transformers is really what is arbitrary. ali is a single entity long out of his prime, and transformers is a more recent brand being marketed to promote several pieces of major entertainment and merchandise products. that is really neither hear nor there. we are talking old sports figures and their popularity today long after they retired.

 

[Homeboy Runny-Ray]

when generation x completely removes boomers from the power seat in media, we will probably see boxers from the 80s being placed on the highest pedestal, but not really heavyweights. ali's era will probably remain seen as the peak for the HW division until some unkown point in the distant future when it improves, but most fan interest will probably be on smaller fighters going forward.

ali and jack are not on any equal footing. what's done is done. jack is simply never going to matter much to the general public today or in the future. people under 40 will still repeat that ali is the greatest whether they can explain why or not. you can ask most people under 40 about jack johnson and they are probably going to think you are talking about music. a google search shows that the very first result is the singer, not the boxer. the boxer only shows up once on the first results page. meanwhile, i google "greatest of all time" and ali, lebron, and jordan show up by name.

yea i dig it.

but its just not right.

 

[Originalman]

One of his wives was a high end socialite. Etta Duryea. She ended up committing suicide though.

That is right I forgot about her. Thanks for that info man.

 

[filial_piety]

it matters if we are talking about popularity or "relevance". if they dont know it's his then it is not really relevant to this discussion since this thread is about the people, not random, unsourced pop culture references that have become commonplace

they are not arbitrary, they are a piece of the "zeitgeist". a disparity to that degree cant be dismissed. ali really is more relevant than babe ruth. nobody even bothers comparing him to contemporary players like they compare ali to floyd. ruth also has no political significance and very little ethnic significance, which is also evidenced by his lack of search results in comparison to ali

your comparison of ali to transformers is really what is arbitrary. ali is a single entity long out of his prime, and transformers is a more recent brand being marketed to promote several pieces of major entertainment and merchandise products. that is really neither hear nor there. we are talking old sports figures and their popularity today long after they retired.

We're not talking about "relevance" we're talking about popularity and notoriety. Technically Floyd Mayweather is more "relevant" today than Muhammed Ali is, but I hardly think that he is as popular. Furthermore, there are thousands of gestures that are used in everyday customs that are still important regardless of the fact that most of us know of where they originated--many of which are more popular than "float like a butterfly.." Secondly, my question wasn't about "people" or "relevance", but more so about the popularity of the said person or people in contrast.

Your second point is completely incoherent.

As for your third point, the example was simply evidence of how arbitrary and misleading your metric was based on a simple search returns. I simply countered that with the point that proving that anyone or anything can yield higher search results in google but that doesn't necessarily translate into greater notoriety or popularity nor does that make it an accurate search.

Furthermore your example is patently false based on the premise that searching "Muhammed" and "Ali" will yield VERY high search results but that does NOT mean that every page that yields those results are talking about Cassius Clay (who's name yields 650k results) but anyone with the name "Muhammed" (including the Muslim prophet lol) or "Ali"...or any human in the Muslim world (that ever existed and was published) with the name "Muhammed Ali" which gives you misleading return on the search results and a false conclusion. Transformers will not give the same misleading results.


THat being said...thanks for the exchange.

 

[MikelArteta]

Ali carried the Olympic torch everyone knows that iconic image

 

[NZA]

We're not talking about "relevance" we're talking about popularity and notoriety. Technically Floyd Mayweather is more "relevant" today than Muhammed Ali is, but I hardly think that he is as popular. Furthermore, there are thousands of gestures that are used in everyday customs that are still important regardless of the fact that most of us know of where they originated--many of which are more popular than "float like a butterfly.." Secondly, my question wasn't about "people" or "relevance", but more so about the popularity of the said person or people in contrast.

Your second point is completely incoherent.

As for your third point, the example was simply evidence of how arbitrary and misleading your metric was based on a simple search returns. I simply countered that with the point that proving that anyone or anything can yield higher search results in google but that doesn't necessarily translate into greater notoriety or popularity nor does that make it an accurate search.

Furthermore your example is patently false based on the premise that searching "Muhammed" and "Ali" will yield VERY high search results but that does NOT mean that every page that yields those results are talking about Cassius Clay (who's name yields 650k results) but anyone with the name "Muhammed" (including the Muslim prophet lol) or "Ali"...or any human in the Muslim world (that ever existed and was published) with the name "Muhammed Ali" which gives you misleading return on the search results and a false conclusion. Transformers will not give the same misleading results.


THat being said...thanks for the exchange.

if ali is more internationally known then how can babe ruth be just as popular?

also, when you control for accuracy by using quotes when searching, ali is still well ahead of babe, breh

 

[filial_piety]

if ali is more internationally known then how can babe ruth be just as popular?

also, when you control for accuracy by using quotes when searching, ali is still well ahead of babe, breh

I've already mentioned this point in a previous post. I even initially stated that this was true by a "long shot."

That being said, I think just about anyone here would agree that we were referring to the domestic popularity of the athletes themselves...Jack Johnson included. I'd still stand by the belief that Babe Ruth and Muhammed Ali are equally known name wise in the U.S. So my question still remains open.

And even if you do attempt to "control the accuracy" by using quotations, it still doesn't guarantee that every search return is referring to Muhammmed Ali (the boxer) Breh...it's also significantly less than your initial estimate (try typing in Cassius Clay for example which yields 650k which is a big difference from your original 105 mill estimate). The more you focus on exactly the person your referring to, the less the search results...either way, there's more than one Muhammed Ali on this earth and there has been since before his birth.

 

[KingsOfKings]