but he had very little real impact on the overall course of the game at either end of the court
What kind of was that? He held Rondo scoreless the entire first half, then held Pierce scoreless nearly the entire 3rd quarter. He couldn't slow down the entire Boston offense because Boston had FOUR players that no one other than Lebron could guard. How is he supposed to affect the "overall course of the game" on defense....simultaneously stop Rondo from driving AND Garnett from posting AND Allen and Pierce from hitting jumpers?
Oh so no long winded breakdown of all of Lebron and kobes stats like you how you reply to everybody else
I fought everything you said and made points of my own
You didn't "fight" anything I said. Everyone I said was still 100% true, you just offered a few guesses and diversions. You didn't counter a single point.
Very briefly:
We still acting like Kobe didn't have major playoff games while playing with shaq
And McHale had major playoff games playing with Bird, Tony Parker had big games playing with Duncan, Wade had some big games aside Lebron.
But please, no one ever mistakes the 1980s Celtics titles or the 2000s Spurs titles or the 2010s Heat titles for "McHale championships" or "Tony Parker championships" or "Dwyane Wade championships".
If just counting rings counts, without context, then only the best player matters. If other players get credit, then you must be saying context matters, and then you have to deal with the fact that Kobe got more seasons (7) with Shaq alone than Lebron's had with all his decent lineups combined (5). Or that Kobe got 11 years of Phil Jackson, while Lebron's best coach so far is half a season of rookie Lue.
Los Angeles Lakers vs San Antonio Spurs - 2001 WC Finals
Kobe - 33.3 PPG
Shaq - 27 PPG
Yes, occasionally Kobe could manage more ppg than Shaq, when Shaq was going up against NBA MVP Tim Duncan and a defense totally focused on stopping him, while Kobe was guarded by freaking Antonio Daniels or 38-year-old Terry Porter.
But cherry-picking series means nothing. Compare the whole season, the whole playoffs, the Finals, it was obvious that Shaq was the core of everyone one of those championship teams and everyone they faced knew it.
Not only that, Kobe averaged 40 for a month on several occasions. You telling me all those teams he played monthly were all garbage low end teams
43.4 ppg in January 2006
- played 13 games
- includes 81 point game & two 50+ games
No, not every team was garbage. That's why Kobe had games like 17-41 against the Clippers, 14-32 against the Pacers, 9-21 against Cleveland, 12-33 against Phoenix, 12-28 against Detroit, 7-22 against the Warriors, and 7-17 against the Knicks.
And the Cavs, Suns, and Warriors all had mediocre defenses. The Knicks had one of the worst defenses in the NBA.
In fact, Kobe only broke 50% shooting 3 times in 14 games. But he took at least 28 shots 9 times in 13 games (385 shots for the month) and was sent to the line 20+ times in three games as well (176 free throws that month).
If you spend 1346 career games practicing nothing but volume shooting at a 44% clip, you'll have some outliers where you make more shots. That HAS to happen with random variation. We already covered this in a thread last week - when Kobe shoots 30+ shots, he shoots in the 20s more often than in the 60s, he's under 40% more often than he's over 50%.
And you play 180 months of NBA season, you'll have the occasional month where you string more of those outliers together and get 40ppg. You'll also have months where you average 22ppg on 35% shooting.
What Kobestans never explain - how the hell does a random-ass regular season month define a player, rather than their whole season or whole career?
Maybe because when you're a volume shooter hoping for random variance to look good, career numbers are never going to be as impressive as that random month here and there?
It's not even like Kobe gets hotter more often than Lebron. In 20 seasons, Kobe only had 16 Player of the Month awards. In only 13 seasons, Lebron has already had 39 Player of the Month awards. Lebron is FAR more consistent than Kobe, because his greatness has never relied on random variation in low-% volume shooting.
Since Shaq, Kobe had ONE big time player in Pau gasol by his side in the finals. Lebron had HOF Wade, possible HOf Bosh, Kyrie, Love & HOF Ray Allen in a course of 5 years
all in their primes except ray Allen.
Kobe had flabby Gary Payton and Karl Malone who spent their primes getting their ass kicked by jordan. There was Robert Horry. Idk if he's hall of famers but he has 7 rings so if u want to count him
Lebron has had ONE season with Love lasting to the end, and he sucked in the Finals more than Malone did in 2004. Lebron has had ONE full season with Kyrie. Lebron has had 3 Finals with a healthy Bosh and 3 Finals with a healthy Wade.
That's only 5 seasons where Lebron has had those "great" players you mention, and only 3 seasons where he had them healthy. Most of his career, he was going to bat with Daniel Gibsons and Matthew Dellavadovas and Mo Williams as his #2 options.
Meanwhile, Kobe had 7 seasons with Shaq and 6 seasons with Pau. That's 2/3 of his career right there (and the best 2/3 too, without his rookie season or his last two flabby years counting in those 14).
And it wasn't like Pau was alone - the Lakers had the greatest frontcount in the NBA or close to it for a good part of Kobe's career:
2008: Odom, Pau, Bynum
2009: Odom, Pau, Bynum, with Ariza off the bench
2010: Artest, Pau, Bynum, with Odom off the bench
2011: Artest, Pau, Bynum, with Odom and Barnes off the bench
2012: Artest, Pau, Bynum, with Barnes off the bench
2013: Artest, Pau, Dwight, with Jamison off the bench
Then you're talking 2004 with Fox-Malone-Shaq and 1998-2003 with Fox-Horry-Shaq (and guys like Horace Grant, AC Green, and Glen Rice thrown in there too).
Kobe had 13 years where you'd have trouble matching up any frontline in the NBA against his. Lebron has had 2 years where he made it through the playoffs with 2 healthy all-stars. It's not even a close comparison.
Oh and Kobe has 36 game winners.
This was already covered in a recent thread too.
I already gave you the standard criteria - less than 24 seconds left, shot to tie or lead.
Lebron's made 40 in 13 years,
Kobe's made 55 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and %'s are better.
You want to make up a new criteria? How about it only counts if it's to take the lead and they win the game?
Then
Lebron has 23 in 13 years,
Kobe has 30 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and % still both better.
Okay, you don't like that one....how about shot to win with just 5 seconds or less left?
Lebron has 12 in 13 years,
Kobe has 18 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and % still slightly better.
Maybe last 2 seconds is better for you?
Lebron has 10 in 13 years,
Kobe has 11 in 20 years. Looking worse again for Kobe now.
Okay, maybe final second...
Lebron has 9 of those in 13 years,
Kobe has 10 in 20 years. That's not even close, Lebron is destroying Kobe's pace and his % is better too.
Any way you cut it, Lebron hits game-winners at a higher rate and with a better % than Kobe ever did.
And you don't even want to rework those numbers for the playoffs, because Lebron's numbers
kick Kobe's ass there.
Final 24 seconds to lead to tie,
Lebron is already up 8 to 7 in far fewer seasons and attempts (8-23 now compared to Kobe's 7-28).
Final 5 seconds and to win,
Lebron is up 5 to 2. Lebron 5-12, Kobe 2-12.
4 to 1 in final second. Lebron 4-7, Kobe 1-4.
All from Basketball Reference's shot-finder, plus a tiny bit of additional research to cover Kobe's first 3 seasons (not that they help his case)
Lebron's results on game-winning shots are better than Kobe's. It's just the facts.
if we so stupid stop arguing and put us on ignore instead of bytching.
