Why Tim Duncan is overrated and KG is underrated

[FTBS]

Parker's Playoff career averages are 19ppg 5ast and 3 in 150 plus playoff games and you going to bring up a 3 game playoff rampage billups and the T wolves went on.

Point is he lost with his teammates going on "a rampage". This idea that KG never had any help is laughable.

 

[SwagKingKong]

The talent was actually more comparable than you are giving it credit for. Dude had Marbury, Billups, Scerbiak, Terrel Brandon all 15+ ppg scorers in addition to Latrell and Cassell who you mentioned. KG was more talented and athletic but his inability/refusal to do work in the post as well as his moments late in games and the fact that he was an elite rim protector from jump give Duncan the edge as a player not rings.

You mention Marbury, Billups (who was a journeyman at this point of his career), Szczerbiak, and Brandon as if this is any evidence of playing with good talent. He had these players over the span of what, 12 years in Minny! That's HORRIBLE. The time he got actual help (I'm being kind, because the '04 roster is trash too), he made it to the WCF and would probably maket he finals if Cassell didn't go down.

He was also coached by Flip Saunders for a majority of his career.. and then McHale, Casey and Wittman. None of those are good coaches.

Also, there is no evidence of KG choking late in games, this is just a bullshyt narrative driven by the media to explain why his teams were so poor. it had nothing to do with KG. Just look at the clutch stats on 82games.com or stats.nba.com .

KG and Duncan are basically interchangable impact wise. Both were great players, KG peaked higher and Duncan was more NBA ready from the start.

You cant go wrong with either one of them. I prefer KG, but that's just because I prefer his better defense (GOAT pick-n-roll defender) compared to the edge that Duncan has offensively over their careers.

 

[FTBS]

You mention Marbury, Billups (who was a journeyman at this point of his career), Szczerbiak, and Brandon as if this is any evidence of playing with good talent. He had these players over the span of what, 12 years in Minny! That's HORRIBLE. The time he got actual help (I'm being kind, because the '04 roster is trash too), he made it to the WCF and would probably maket he finals if Cassell didn't go down.

He was also coached by Flip Saunders for a majority of his career.. and then McHale, Casey and Wittman. None of those are good coaches.

Also, there is no evidence of KG choking late in games, this is just a bullshyt narrative driven by the media to explain why his teams were so poor. it had nothing to do with KG. Just look at the clutch stats on 82games.com or stats.nba.com .

KG and Duncan are basically interchangable impact wise. Both were great players, KG peaked higher and Duncan was more NBA ready from the start.

You cant go wrong with either one of them. I prefer KG, but that's just because I prefer his better defense (GOAT pick-n-roll defender) compared to the edge that Duncan has offensively over their careers.

I thought that too until I watched him literally fall off in the 4th against LA in 2008. Nothing clutch about grabbing 3 boards and refusing to post in a game 7 of the NBA Finals in 2010. I acknowledged the advantages that Duncan has had. Problem is cats act like Duncan was out there rolling with J. Kidd and Kobe. TP and Manu have benefited WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more from playing with Tim than the other way around. Tim's starting backcourt in his first ring was Avery Johnson and Mario Elie. You wanna talk about impact how about the Spurs getting dispatched 3-1 in round one the year after they won the title when Duncan was out? KG was great but I just can't see him going out there and going toe to toe with Shaq like Duncan did. The Spurs were an also ran and Pop was a nobody before Duncan got there. Can't deny what they have done however we can't minimize how big of part Tim played in what they have been able to do.

 

[Goatpoacher]

Dirk turned a corner in 06 when he went to work on the Spurs in the post. He went out like a bytch in 07 but let's not act like KG hasn't had his share of weak moments as well. Two dimensional only wins out if the guys are close on offense. Dirk was far superior in pretty much every. There are way more role players than can come in and help you get stops then there are role players that can carry and offense when shyt is hot. What is valuable about getting knocked out in the first round every year? Obviously not all his fault but you can't tell me about value when a team make one trip out of the first round in 12 years. All that said it is at least arguable between KG and Dirk. No argument between KG and Timothy.

KG never lost as the 1 seed.

Timmy and Dirk have :JJ:

And it wasn't until 2009 that Dirk patched his weakness, i.e. smaller quicker players would take his lunch. KG and Dirk are far closer offensively than they are defensively. KG was a 20-10-5 player.

 

[FTBS]

KG never lost as the 1 seed.

Timmy and Dirk have :JJ:

And it wasn't until 2009 that Dirk patched his weakness, i.e. smaller quicker players would take his lunch. KG and Dirk are far closer offensively than they are defensively. KG was a 20-10-5 player.

Timmy and Dirk don't have 8 first round defeats either...probably not even combined. You don't wanna play the team success card with KG.

Dirk is the only guy avg. 25 and 10 for his playoff career right now. Tim put up 25, 15, 5 for a whole postseason (not just 3 or 4 games) and went toe to toe with Shaq. Dirk and Tim were go to guys. KG was not. Like I said Dirk and KG can be debated. No debate with Timothy.

 

[dontreadthis]

Dirk and KG can be debated. No debate with Timothy.

factual.

 

[I.V.]

Duncan is not a power forward. He is a center that plays power forward. He played PF due to him playing with Robinson. Then when he retired, Duncan was too scared to play against Shaq when he was on the Lakers so he stayed in that position.

Where is the proof of this?

Also people really overlook how stacked those Spurs teams were. From the '99 team with Avery Johnson, Mario Ellie, Shawn Elliot, Robinson, etc. Then later Kerr, Stephen Jackson, Ginobili, Parker, etc.

I'mma stop you here for a second. That first team you're talking about had Duncan and Robinson. That's it. In that first championship, Avery Johnson THE FIRST NAME YOU LISTED TO SAY THEY WERE STACKED didn't even average 10 points a game. And robinson only averaged 15/10 that year. Mario Elie!!!!! He really said "they had mario elie" out loud. You dudes are too much.

The second championship, the KERR ( ), Parker/Manu teams. Parker and Manu were YEARS away from being All Stars, and Parker was getting benched in the 4th quarter of games for Speedy Claxton. Duncan was the only star on those teams, one of three players to do it in the modern era.

Do your homework.


Let someone say KG had any body on his team close to that. None of his teammates were no where as good as even one of Duncan's. To me its impressive that KG lead his teams to the playoffs and lost in the WC Finals in 2004 with Sprewell and Cassell as his best teammates

Yeah, it's impressive. Not as impressive as winning championships, though. And KG for all of his skill, was a jump-shooting big man. Incredibly skilled, incredibly athletic jump shooter. One of the reasons for his lack of success, long term.


And now on Duncan the player. As crazy as it may sound, Duncan was overrated.

Go on...

He is the perfect example of a system guy.

Go on....


Duncan was the lone player in all those 4 titles, but so was Popovich as a coach.

1) This sentence isn't English.
2) You wanna talk about Duncan the player, so you talk about Popvich?

Popovich to me is one of the greatest coaches of all time IMO. One of the best at creating plays, and recognizing the talent he has and utilizing it to its greatest potential to succeed. One of the best half court executing teams.

True. One of the three greatest coaches of all time.

Duncan was not that great an individual talent offensively or defensively.



I will admit had a very high BBall IQ and utilized the "system" to perfection and had the physical tools to do so. Not to mention he was the ultimate team player. He knows exactly where to be and it helps that he is a good passer. But when have you ever seen Duncan put someone in a phone booth defensively or dominated someone offensively?

Yes, many times. Especially KG.

What I'm basically saying is Duncan's greatness is predicated on Popovich's off and deff sets.

#2 Defensive Rating all time. #2 Defensive Win Shares all time. #8 Career blocks, #1 Post-season blocks. That's just his defense. 20/11/3/2 career... over a 17 year career. While shooting 51% from the floor. He gave you 25/13/4/3 in his prime. Best footwork in the NBA, best back to the basket game in the nba, best passing big in the NBA, He was a defensive force in a way that players like Shaq and Ewing could only dream of. Always in position.

Where did you grow up watching basketball?


KG on the other hand never had a steady coach on the Wolves except for Flip Saunders for a few years. Was the anchor on defense on a poor defensive team. One of the best defensive players of any position IMO. An exceptional passer. Also one of the best footwork for a big man. Only Mchale and Olajuwon are in his league in that regard. Duncan's defense is again a "system" defense. He plays good defense on only power forwards since he really is a center anyway lol

The first underlined is not true. He was a tremendous talent, and he was able to face up and make a move plus handle the ball.. but he didn't have great post footwork.

The second underlined is laughable. There are no "system defenses" in the NBA. The spurs have had great defensive teams after Robinson retired because of Tim Duncan. The spurs aren't running 1-2-1-1 press traps for 48 minutes and shyt. Parker can't defend. Manu can't defend. And yet, they've been good defensive teams... that's because they had an All Time pillar in the middle.

To say Duncan is the best because of his titles is wrong,

Nobody says this. They say he's the best because he's been the most successful over the longest period of time, and had a peerless skillset.

given his very talented teammates and hall of fame coach. Is Kobe better than Oscar Robertson because of his 5 titles? Um..hell no.

No. Kobe is better than Oscar Robertson because he's the superior player. Just like Kareem is better than Bill Russell because he was the superior player. Tim Duncan is so vastly better than KG that it's laughable you'd try to bring in Big O to back you up.

Duncan is not in the same league as KG

You are correct. He's miles ahead of KG, who could never score consistently in close game or the playoffs because his game was predicated on being 18 feet from the hoop. It's why they'd run double teams at him and force him to pass off to Sam, Wally, whomever for the last shot of the game. You couldn't throw it into him in the post late in the game and say "Go get us a bucket" because he was catching it above the elbow and looking to shoot a pullup.

This is not a shot at Duncan to make KG look good. I am simply stating that he is not the player people portray him to be. Duncan should still be in the Hall of Fame obviously, but not in that all time elite status. KG, instead of Duncan, should be regarded as the greatest PF to ever play

This post was so inane and lacking in facts, that you should be banned for wasting people's time. You don't want to use numbers because the numbers don't favor him, you don't want to use matchups, because the matchups don't favor him, you don't want to use footage, because the footage doesn't favor him.

Tim Duncan has been better than KG at basketball every step of KG's life. Duncan has been more successful, harder to guard, harder to score on... and has won the head-2-head matchups. They aren't in the same league because Duncan is an All-Time Great, and KG was just a great player. He choked in the playoffs, he had seasons where he couldn't get his team out of the basement, he quit on the Wolves to go to boston, and now, in the twilight of his career, he's putting up games of 3 points 1 rebound... while Dungawd is giving you. 15/10 in less than 30 minutes a night. He's still top 10 in rebounding% top 10 in block%, top 5 in blocks per game. And when the playoffs came, he still turned it up... 22/15 and 19/13 to close out OKC. 21/10 to open the Heat series, and tear out their hearts.


Meanwhile, KG failed to score more than 10 points in 9 of his 12 playoff games.... :kobechair:

 

[Goatpoacher]

Timmy and Dirk don't have 8 first round defeats either...probably not even combined. You don't wanna play the team success card with KG.

Dirk is the only guy avg. 25 and 10 for his playoff career right now. Tim put up 25, 15, 5 for a whole postseason (not just 3 or 4 games) and went toe to toe with Shaq. Dirk and Tim were go to guys. KG was not. Like I said Dirk and KG can be debated. No debate with Timothy.

I'm not debating KG vs. Timmy either, obviously. I just think KG's defensive acumen is undervalued whereas Dirk's defensive ineptitude is ignored. But let's ignore the KG v. Dirk debate. The problem I have with people these days is that KG has been consistently devalued his entire career. He is grossly underrated. The thread title is half correct.

 

[FTBS]

I'm not debating KG vs. Timmy either, obviously. I just think KG's defensive acumen is undervalued whereas Dirk's defensive ineptitude is ignored. But let's ignore the KG v. Dirk debate. The problem I have with people these days is that KG has been consistently devalued his entire career. He is grossly underrated. The thread title is half correct.

Is he not recognized as a superstar and one of the greats of his ear? Did he not get "great leader" cred after winning in Boston. Who in his generation other than Tim, Kobe, Shaq, is consistently put over him (not even Dirk is)?

 

[havoc]

You mention Marbury, Billups (who was a journeyman at this point of his career), Szczerbiak, and Brandon as if this is any evidence of playing with good talent. He had these players over the span of what, 12 years in Minny! That's HORRIBLE. The time he got actual help (I'm being kind, because the '04 roster is trash too), he made it to the WCF and would probably maket he finals if Cassell didn't go down.

He was also coached by Flip Saunders for a majority of his career.. and then McHale, Casey and Wittman. None of those are good coaches.

Also, there is no evidence of KG choking late in games, this is just a bullshyt narrative driven by the media to explain why his teams were so poor. it had nothing to do with KG. Just look at the clutch stats on 82games.com or stats.nba.com .

KG and Duncan are basically interchangable impact wise. Both were great players, KG peaked higher and Duncan was more NBA ready from the start.

You cant go wrong with either one of them. I prefer KG, but that's just because I prefer his better defense (GOAT pick-n-roll defender) compared to the edge that Duncan has offensively over their careers.

He never show up with confidence to will his team in the 4th and that's the truth. Statistic isn't going to represent how timid he was in the closing minutes.

 

[CACarot]

Point is he lost with his teammates going on "a rampage". This idea that KG never had any help is laughable.

You not understanding it. We talking about player importance, Quality, and effect on the game. I can pull up the stats of any team and there will always be roughly 3 players that average double figures and decent stats. For example pull up the bobcats that set the record for the worst season in NBA history. They had several players avg double figures. My point is no matter what somebody is going to fill those numbers but lets think of the type of players and the point in they career. When you think about this KG never had help except for once in Minny and his golden years in Boston.

 

[FTBS]

You not understanding it. We talking about player importance, Quality, and effect on the game. I can pull up the stats of any team and there will always be roughly 3 players that average double figures and decent stats. For example pull up the bobcats that set the record for the worst season in NBA history. They had several players avg double figures. My point is no matter what somebody is going to fill those numbers but lets think of the type of players and the point in they career. When you think about this KG never had help except for once in Minny and his golden years in Boston.

He was never ever the post force that Duncan was and didn't come close to him on the defensive end until later in his career while Duncan was an anchor from jump. Tim has won with young inconsistent players, old borderline flabby players, and a mix thereof. Like I said he hasn't exactly been rolling with Kobe, J. Kidd, and Bron throughout his career. Nobody that he won his first 3 titles with can truly be called great at the time that they were winning. The constant in SA has been Timothy and his presence has allowed them to do a lot of what they have been able to do.

 

[havoc]

I gotta co-sign this as well. it's been too many times when KG was in his prime, when he'd shrivel up come the 4th quarter. even on that 04 team, he'd regularly defer to spree and sam in the 4th. and on boston, there was RARELY a time when dude was calling for the ball in the 4th. usually it was PP or ray taking the big shot.

This. Let remind some of you Garnett's supporter. KG is the same fake tough guy who didn't dominate the HEAT in 2012 conference finals when the Heat didn't have a serviceable big man to defend on the low block. 5 of 7 games in that series Bosh did not play because he was out with abdominal injury. He had a chance to eat the Heat for food in the lane, but missed his chance to give the Celtics the edge in paint scoring. He did well helping Rondo defending Wade. However, his impact was not enough offensively against a small lineup. Furthermore, his performance against the Heat this season was awfully atrocious. 6'11 nikka with post skills can't score and rebound well against a team that love to play small ball

 

[ghostwriterx]

Wait a minute, you mean this thread isn't just 7 pages of people negging the op?
There are people in this thread who actually agree with that blasphemy.

 

[Street Knowledge]

Kg is an inefficient jump shooting big in the playoffs who doesn't get to the line or score enough. He's got like 10 30 point playoff games his entire career.