Can you guys help me settle the LeBron debate with my dad?
- Thread starter DripSzn
- Start date
It’s like I said earlier, everybody can’t luck their way into having HOF’ers added to their team. Kobe had Shaq for his first 3 rings. Jordan had Pippen and later Rodman added for his rings.
The Cavs team had stellar defenses, but LeBron was literally their entire offense during those years. Literally dragged them to the playoffs outside of 1 or 2 seasons.
It is what it is though.
High quality poster
Veteran
For what it’s worth I think Bron is a top 5 player. It’s hard to rank him lower than at least 4 based on his longevity stats. But yall talking like he was Jordan and Kobe wasn’t no where near his level is laughable. Man was dominating a weak ass eastern conference(his former Gms own words) while Kobe was dominating a historically great west.
My issue with Bron stans is the need to constantly bring other players down to make him seem greater. No other fan base does this as much as Bron stans
Trojan 24
Veteran
Listen to ya Daddy, not cacs online friend
You kinda got me mixed up, lol. I got Jordan over Bron as the #1.
As far as Kobe goes though, I got few others like Kareem and Shaq over him
Last edited:
IsThatBrothaMouzone?
Veteran
80s was fast paced, like today but without all the 3s.
"Slow ball" didn't really start until MJ's Bulls became dominant in the 90s and that lasted until the mid 2000s. Bron started off his career as an 18-year old in the slow ball/physical era and was an All-Star almost immediately. A 6'8" breh with the IQ/Vision of Magic, the athleticism of Jordan and the strength of Karl Malone....he'd be fine in any era.
He flops because that's what players do today. If things were called ol school style, he would adjust....just like Jordan would adjust to the 2026 game if he was playing today.
Greenhornet
A God Among Kings
you gotta blame lebron for making a bunch of terrible decisions that make his accolades hold no weight
Mister Terrific
It’s Great to be a Michigan Wolverine
Tell your pops we got film now so all that 90’s physical babble is out the window
Michael Gilgeous Alexander looking ass. Air whistle looking ass.
Michael Gilgeous Alexander looking ass. Air whistle looking ass.
murksiderock
Superstar
The 80s and 90s appeared more physical because them nikkas lost their hairlines at 26 and looked 40 
All jokes aside the difference in physicality between then and now is just in how the game is played. The game was played inside-out back then so it increases the perception that it was a tougher era, even though it actually wasn't. You can't change dad's mind on how he perceives what he saw, though.
For the record, my dad just turned 61, I'm about to be 37, we been talking ball my entire life. Dr J is his favorite player of all time, but he liked a bunch of players. His favorite current players are Embiid and Ant.
My dad saw Jordan's Tar Heels lose to the Razorbacks in '84 (my dad is from Little Rock) and followed Mike's entire career from that point on. His take, 61-year old lifelong basketball head who was watching since the 70s, is there is no single GOAT, but Mike and LeBron are the most justifiable names for that title.
My dad always thought Jordan was a little overrated, gives him his props as a great player, but said the gap between Jordan, and Magic and Bird, the gap that is perceived today is a larger one than realistically existed in real time...Mike was better than them, but it wasn't by some dramatic amount.
To contextualize that, it woukd be akin to what the perceived gap is between Bron and Steph, for people who think Steoh is closer to Bron as a player.
Also, Bob Costas about 6 years ago basically corroborated what my Dad had always said. Mike was better than everyone but the gap was increased with time and the popular narrative that formed around Jordan. There wasn't a huge leap from Mike to those dudes.
So my dad always had a problem with the framing of Mike as "the GOAT" as if there wasn't, or isn't real competition to that claim.
My dad has never been a rings warrior, we all understand you need championships to have a seat in the GOAT conversation, but he won't entertain anybody who starts any convo with "he has 6 rings"....especially because he watched his entire career. My dad is notorious for saying, "and yeah, before Pippen popped how many rings did he have"? pops also thinks if Dr J got to play his whole career in the NBA he'd have 5 or 6 rings and who am I to argue with that? Dr J likely does take a historical hit because the first third of his career was in the ABA.
To circle it back, while I agree with my dad on Mike (I only saw Wizards Mike play; I formed my own Jordan opinions thru being a basketball head since a kid)...we differ slightly on where we rank Kobe.
All jokes aside the difference in physicality between then and now is just in how the game is played. The game was played inside-out back then so it increases the perception that it was a tougher era, even though it actually wasn't. You can't change dad's mind on how he perceives what he saw, though.
For the record, my dad just turned 61, I'm about to be 37, we been talking ball my entire life. Dr J is his favorite player of all time, but he liked a bunch of players. His favorite current players are Embiid and Ant.
My dad saw Jordan's Tar Heels lose to the Razorbacks in '84 (my dad is from Little Rock) and followed Mike's entire career from that point on. His take, 61-year old lifelong basketball head who was watching since the 70s, is there is no single GOAT, but Mike and LeBron are the most justifiable names for that title.
My dad always thought Jordan was a little overrated, gives him his props as a great player, but said the gap between Jordan, and Magic and Bird, the gap that is perceived today is a larger one than realistically existed in real time...Mike was better than them, but it wasn't by some dramatic amount.
To contextualize that, it woukd be akin to what the perceived gap is between Bron and Steph, for people who think Steoh is closer to Bron as a player.
Also, Bob Costas about 6 years ago basically corroborated what my Dad had always said. Mike was better than everyone but the gap was increased with time and the popular narrative that formed around Jordan. There wasn't a huge leap from Mike to those dudes.
So my dad always had a problem with the framing of Mike as "the GOAT" as if there wasn't, or isn't real competition to that claim.
My dad has never been a rings warrior, we all understand you need championships to have a seat in the GOAT conversation, but he won't entertain anybody who starts any convo with "he has 6 rings"....especially because he watched his entire career. My dad is notorious for saying, "and yeah, before Pippen popped how many rings did he have"?
pops also thinks if Dr J got to play his whole career in the NBA he'd have 5 or 6 rings and who am I to argue with that? Dr J likely does take a historical hit because the first third of his career was in the ABA.To circle it back, while I agree with my dad on Mike (I only saw Wizards Mike play; I formed my own Jordan opinions thru being a basketball head since a kid)...we differ slightly on where we rank Kobe.
murksiderock
Superstar
My dad agrees Kobe is a little below Bron and Mike but my dad thinks Kobe has a Top 5 argument, which I think is ridiculous. Here's what I'll say to that.
Anyone who tells you only LeBron has a "media campaign" or "propaganda" is lying thru their teeth. No athlete in the history of American sports besides maybe Tiger Woods (before he was outed as a degenerate drunk) had a larger, louder media campaign than Michael fukking Jordan.
And Kobe Bryant also had a such a large media popularity that they covered his fukking prom on shyt like ET and he was voted an All-Star as a Y2 6th man averaging 15 a game....don't listen to anyone who tells you "the media" hated Kobe.
There was a time when his popularity took a hit, that's true. And it took awhile to build it back up, but by the time he retired he was largely beloved again and you can CERTAINLY see that with how he's covered post-death. All in all, Kobe was always more loved than not.
Alot of Kobe's ranking has to do with how people feel about LeBron or Shaq. For the people who think Kobe was flatly better at basketball, you can't change their minds. What I'll say is this.
•Kobe didn't walk in the door dominating the NBA. A bunch of other guys did, not just LeBron (Wilt, Russell, Bird, Kareem, Mike, Shaq, Duncan). This kinda thing should matter greatly when the specific topic is a player's GOATness; in order to say you are above one of those guys who walked in smashing shyt, you have to acknowledge that Kobe is playing catch up from the start. So you have to believe that Kobe's later accomplishments surpass not only that those guys started faster, but they went on to accomplish more;
•you already have the point covered about him beung drafted to a team with Shaq. Kobe heads will try to undersell this, but it can't be undersold. Shaq was a Top 5 player when Kobe was drafted, who turned into arguably the best player in basketball when Jordan retired (it was a back and forth between Shaq and Duncan, post-Mike, for a half-decade).
We all recognized Kobe was an ascending, great player, and listen, NBA media wouldn't let you forget that he was an ascending, great player but we knew it; even still he was not seen on the level of best player in basketball.
There was no confusion in real time who the best player on the 3peat Lakers was, everybody knew it was Shaq.
So specific to Kobe, you weren't even the best player on your team for the first 7 years or so. People who want you to believe that he was better than LeBron, Bird, these other guys, will find ways to dip around this fact.
Anyone who tells you only LeBron has a "media campaign" or "propaganda" is lying thru their teeth. No athlete in the history of American sports besides maybe Tiger Woods (before he was outed as a degenerate drunk) had a larger, louder media campaign than Michael fukking Jordan.
And Kobe Bryant also had a such a large media popularity that they covered his fukking prom on shyt like ET and he was voted an All-Star as a Y2 6th man averaging 15 a game....don't listen to anyone who tells you "the media" hated Kobe.
There was a time when his popularity took a hit, that's true. And it took awhile to build it back up, but by the time he retired he was largely beloved again and you can CERTAINLY see that with how he's covered post-death. All in all, Kobe was always more loved than not.
Alot of Kobe's ranking has to do with how people feel about LeBron or Shaq. For the people who think Kobe was flatly better at basketball, you can't change their minds. What I'll say is this.
•Kobe didn't walk in the door dominating the NBA. A bunch of other guys did, not just LeBron (Wilt, Russell, Bird, Kareem, Mike, Shaq, Duncan). This kinda thing should matter greatly when the specific topic is a player's GOATness; in order to say you are above one of those guys who walked in smashing shyt, you have to acknowledge that Kobe is playing catch up from the start. So you have to believe that Kobe's later accomplishments surpass not only that those guys started faster, but they went on to accomplish more;
•you already have the point covered about him beung drafted to a team with Shaq. Kobe heads will try to undersell this, but it can't be undersold. Shaq was a Top 5 player when Kobe was drafted, who turned into arguably the best player in basketball when Jordan retired (it was a back and forth between Shaq and Duncan, post-Mike, for a half-decade).
We all recognized Kobe was an ascending, great player, and listen, NBA media wouldn't let you forget that he was an ascending, great player
but we knew it; even still he was not seen on the level of best player in basketball.There was no confusion in real time who the best player on the 3peat Lakers was, everybody knew it was Shaq.
So specific to Kobe, you weren't even the best player on your team for the first 7 years or so. People who want you to believe that he was better than LeBron, Bird, these other guys, will find ways to dip around this fact.
murksiderock
Superstar
Around Y5 Kobe took another leap and around Y7 it became a real push and pull thing with Shaq. But then Shaq leaves.
Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. The list of GOAT candidates who did this is few, Kareem did as well. But Shaq leaves, Kobe leaps again as an uncontested #1, but misses the playoffs and has a few Rd1 losses, including an ugly blown 3-1 lead to a team that never won anything.
So now you're over a decade into Kobe's career. Wasn't good enough to be a starter his first two years while other guys came in dominant; drafted to a team with a Top 5 guy taking the Lakers to WCF; won 3 rings as a #2; the #1 leaves and he's in the wilderness for a few years.
You're comparing this first 11 or so years to LeBron's first 11, it's a laughable comp. This isn't even remotely the same kinda player we are talking about.
Kobe was a great player. His first 11 years takes him outta the conversation with a ton of guys, because that work when you are young and in your prime matters. So does that later work, but we aren't idiots.
The biggest compliment to Kobe that unjustly gets undersold, is that he worked himself into being arguably a Top 10 player ever, because he isn't that without the Comeback Kobe run in '08, '09, '10. That run put on front street the essence of Kobe, catapulted him over plenty of All-Timers. If Kobe's career continues after '07 but you omit the Comeback run, lets say it goes from '07, to 2011-16, he still ends up as a no doubt Hall of Famer...
But the view on his career would generally be, was he or Pippen the better #2 all time? And I think Kobe would probably get the edge in people's minds, but THAT'S what the Kobe talk would be. A Top 30-ish All-Timer, which is still one of the greatest players ever.
There are plenty of guys who prefer Kobe but will acknowledge LeBron was a better player, you just won't see them on this site
and there are plenty of guys who truly think Kobe was better than LeBron or at least on LeBron's level.
You can't change those guys minds, but the timeline of their careers is evidence that from the jump they were different caliber players.
Ewing is generally thought to be Top 40-ish. Like others have said anyone who thinks he and LeBron are historically debatable is nuts
Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. The list of GOAT candidates who did this is few, Kareem did as well. But Shaq leaves, Kobe leaps again as an uncontested #1, but misses the playoffs and has a few Rd1 losses, including an ugly blown 3-1 lead to a team that never won anything.
So now you're over a decade into Kobe's career. Wasn't good enough to be a starter his first two years while other guys came in dominant; drafted to a team with a Top 5 guy taking the Lakers to WCF; won 3 rings as a #2; the #1 leaves and he's in the wilderness for a few years.
You're comparing this first 11 or so years to LeBron's first 11, it's a laughable comp. This isn't even remotely the same kinda player we are talking about.
Kobe was a great player. His first 11 years takes him outta the conversation with a ton of guys, because that work when you are young and in your prime matters. So does that later work, but we aren't idiots.
The biggest compliment to Kobe that unjustly gets undersold, is that he worked himself into being arguably a Top 10 player ever, because he isn't that without the Comeback Kobe run in '08, '09, '10. That run put on front street the essence of Kobe, catapulted him over plenty of All-Timers. If Kobe's career continues after '07 but you omit the Comeback run, lets say it goes from '07, to 2011-16, he still ends up as a no doubt Hall of Famer...
But the view on his career would generally be, was he or Pippen the better #2 all time? And I think Kobe would probably get the edge in people's minds, but THAT'S what the Kobe talk would be. A Top 30-ish All-Timer, which is still one of the greatest players ever.
There are plenty of guys who prefer Kobe but will acknowledge LeBron was a better player, you just won't see them on this site
and there are plenty of guys who truly think Kobe was better than LeBron or at least on LeBron's level.You can't change those guys minds, but the timeline of their careers is evidence that from the jump they were different caliber players.
Ewing is generally thought to be Top 40-ish. Like others have said anyone who thinks he and LeBron are historically debatable is nuts
This is some real shyt, bruh.
It sounds like your dad still watches the game, too. My old man hasn’t seriously watched basketball outside of Knicks playoff games since the early 2000’s and still thinks he understands the game today
It sounds like your dad still watches the game, too. My old man hasn’t seriously watched basketball outside of Knicks playoff games since the early 2000’s and still thinks he understands the game today
murksiderock
Superstar
Yeah my dad still watches today at 61 years old! He's been a lightweight 76er fan since he was a kid growing up in Arkansas, because that's the team Dr J went to. So he follows the Sixers and was all in on them beating the Celtics and wanting them to beat NY.This is some real shyt, bruh.
It sounds like your dad still watches the game, too. My old man hasn’t seriously watched basketball outside of Knicks playoff games since the early 2000’s and still thinks he understands the game today
He loves Embiid and Ant. Doesn't hate too many players today but has always hated Harden, and I always been a Harden fan
we've gone back and forth on Harden.He didn't like Magic and Bird and never liked the black and white rival dynamic they got, but says that for people who weren't alive or old enough to witness them, most of us wouldn't understand just how great those two were. Like last year we had a conversation about how Jokic compares to them and that was his general read: "yall really don't know how dominant of basketball players Magic and Bird were". He did give Jokic his props though.
The thing with any sport, we all can interpret shyt differently and have different opinions. Real nikkas can have these opposing views and still chop it up and have a good time, this site portrays basketball talk as if everything is static....if I have a favorite player, then everything I say about any other player has to be about my favorite player
Everyone in my real life knows LeBron is my favorite player and I think he's the GOAT, and not one person has ever said that dumb ass shyt above to me
I talk ball in real life too, nobody thinks like this.People on here have said that because I'm a Bron guy, I don't like Kobe
when I fell in love with basketball in 1999, 10 years old, it was because of Kobe Bryant. The first player I ever rooted for was Kobe, the first team I ever rooted for was the Lakers, I've always been a Kobe fan and remain one to this day...my belief that he wasn't a better basketball player than LeBron, doesn't mean I didn't or don't like Kobe.nikkas rarely talk about nikkas I actually didn't like, Vince Carter is one of the most overrated nikkas ever
saw his whole career, he was not like that. Just last week we had a convo at work about Jason Kidd (based off a recent Reddit post about him), and he was also overrated, I never liked him.I watch alot less basketball today than I did even 3 years ago, I'm not as engaged or interested in the teams or names right now. But my viewership has always kinda ebbed and flowed, and I'm a historian of the sport and have an innate love for it, so I always check in from time to time.
If you love basketball keep watching and educating yourself on it and it's healthy to have conversations with people who share your love for it. This board has an overrepresentation of guys who spend way more time talking ball on here, than to real people, in real life. Don't let the shyt said on here misdirect your love for the game or your core basketball beliefs!