I'm teaching myself french atm
just wanted to know. This country is no place for a black man imo so i'm just upping my culture to move elsewhere, before I'm 30 wanna be fluent in at least like 4 languages so i can transition elsewhere easily.
France : its colonial past, its relation with immigration, and its concept of freedom (ask your Qs)
I'm teaching myself french atm
just wanted to know. This country is no place for a black man imo so i'm just upping my culture to move elsewhere, before I'm 30 wanna be fluent in at least like 4 languages so i can transition elsewhere easily.
Premeditated
MANDE KANG
There are good advice in this thread : http://www.thecoli.com/threads/language-learning-thread.116689/page-2I'm teaching myself french atm
Some french books :
http://www.thecoli.com/posts/4457141/
Some french flicks :
http://www.thecoli.com/posts/9133540/
Read newspapers also or some websites at least. It will give you good everyday vocabulary.
- Rightish stuff : Le Figaro (http://www.lefigaro.fr/), Le Point (http://www.lepoint.fr/), l'Express (http://www.lexpress.fr/), Atlantico (http://www.atlantico.fr/)...
- Centerish stuff : Lemonde (http://www.lemonde.fr/), Marianne (http://www.marianne.net/)...
- Leftish stuff : L'humanité (http://www.humanite.fr/), Libération (http://www.liberation.fr/), Rue89 (http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/), Le Monde Diplomatique (http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/), Le Nouvel Obs (http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/).
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
I'm not French but I'm half-Belgian and helf-Central-African and have lived in total for about 8 years in France now (5 years in Amiens, nort-west of Paris, and now since 2012 in Paris) so I'll allow myself a couple of comments on the subject.
@Liu Kang already answered but people also have to understand that Dieudonné, while having no media presence whatsoever, is still currently performing. Anyone can go to a Dieudonné show today, might go later this month actually.
Most def, in general, most racists feel strongly about people from the Magbreb, in the sense they are felt as a real threat to French people and the very idea of France, because they stick together and have a strong "counter"-culture,for lack of a better word. Blacks are also less numerous, a lot of them are Catholics/Atheists and just want to fit in, also because unfortunately we tend to know less about our own history/culture. And a lot of Black people look towards the US and Black Americans, meaning other Westerners, as opposed to a lot of Maghrebians looking towards the Middle-East.
@Liu Kang already answered but people also have to understand that Dieudonné, while having no media presence whatsoever, is still currently performing. Anyone can go to a Dieudonné show today, might go later this month actually.
Most def, in general, most racists feel strongly about people from the Magbreb, in the sense they are felt as a real threat to French people and the very idea of France, because they stick together and have a strong "counter"-culture,for lack of a better word. Blacks are also less numerous, a lot of them are Catholics/Atheists and just want to fit in, also because unfortunately we tend to know less about our own history/culture. And a lot of Black people look towards the US and Black Americans, meaning other Westerners, as opposed to a lot of Maghrebians looking towards the Middle-East.
Yeah I didn't tag you because I knew you weren't French and that you might have been lacking history-wise
But your opinion is defo welcome, don't worry.I may add, that it's true that Jewish associations have been targeting him (judicially speaking) but the reason is simply because Dieudonné have been targeting Jewish people and the quasi-sacred Holocaust in his show for years now. And I may also had, that he's not the only one humorist to talk about the Jews, in case some doubt it.
It's something I didn't point but Blacks West Indians in Europe really look up and/or are influenced by African-Americans, at least, culture-wise (music, sports, TV). My father has always been a good fan of pro-balck stuff (Jim Kelly flicks, Hendrix, MJ and even a little bit of rap) though his West Indian influence was the main part of his identity obviously. Also myself, I've always been influenced by (African-)American (and Jamaican but that's another thing) culture since I can remember. France as always been the second world market for rap music for example and if you look at rappers imagery, it's heavily influenced by the States. I don't know about Black Africans and @mbewane surely knows better.
Premeditated
MANDE KANG
How come in France freedom of speech means you can talk shyt about anyone and anything but you can't deny the Holocaust and talk anti semetic rhetoric without being punished?
LeVraiPapi
Redemption is Coming
I LL BE HONEST BREH. I didn't have have a good time with lotta Africans but Caribbeans and Muslims were chill as hell. Ppl will fear Muslims no matter where they go because of the extremists, but my Muslims with that baguette and avocado fed me well
@Liu Kang Did you ever read "Le Comte de Monte Cristo" ? ( pretty sure you have)
Public denial of the Jewish and the Armenian genocides are both punished by law, true.How come in France freedom of speech means you can talk shyt about anyone and anything but you can't deny the Holocaust and talk anti semetic rhetoric without being punished?
But it's not specifically French, in fact, plenty of European countries that were shady about Jews during WW2 have anti-Holocaust denial laws like this (Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Netherlands etc.). IMO, it's a law that comes from the shame of the past, simple as that.
Also, you guys seem to have the idea that only anti-Jews rhetoric are punished but that's not true. At all. Racist, homophobic, antisemitic, islamophobic and plenty of other-phobic stuff (whether they are saying, writings or actions) are punished by law if you go too far. Once gain, Freedom of Speech has its borders and it's up to the courts decide. There are plenty of pro-stuff associations that are used to sue people or entities about it.
Only excerpts unfortunately. I used to read a lot but I don't anymore. But a few weeks back, I bought a cheap tablet so I'm currently downloading ebooks to read while I take a shyt
I'll add it on my to-read list.
DonFrancisco
Your Favorite Tio!
Do you feel that the Islamic radicalization of youth is direct by-product discrimination and being excluded from opportunities?
I only say this because these youths, especially the educated ones might be vulnerable to people that speak to their blight and tell them they should be proud to be Arab and/or Muslim.
I only say this because these youths, especially the educated ones might be vulnerable to people that speak to their blight and tell them they should be proud to be Arab and/or Muslim.
I LL BE HONEST BREH. I didn't have have a good time with lotta Africans but Caribbeans and Muslims were chill as hell. Ppl will fear Muslims no matter where they go because of the extremists, but my Muslims with that baguette and avocado fed me well
What's your background?
It depends on how you view concentrated. but if you consider that Muslims are mostly Maghrebi and Maghrebi are mostly sons of immigrants or immigrants themselves and immigrants are mostly poorer than average and people poorer than average live in estates in the banlieues, my answer would be positive.
It both has to do with how immigration work and how those areas of immigration got created. It's a long way but I'ma sum it up quickly :
- France took cheap workforce in its colonies to develop the metropolitan country and create areas for that workforce to live ("cités" (projects/estates) in the "banlieues" (outskirts/suburbs). Those banlieues were usually far from the centre-ville (downtown) but had everything possible (schools, shops, libraries etc.). Even if in the beginning it was nice places with everything needed around, the ostracism was here de facto.
- The sons (and daughters) of the first generations of migrants grew up in the same place as their parents. Were educated together in the school of the estate, but the jobs were generally downtown or in the big city and not really for some of them (lack of education, lack of cultural references, and also lack of being white). The parents worked hard, but they didn't increase the wealth, didn't better their situation, didn't leave the estate and the estate population grew with similar stories, similar broken dreams and the state breaking its promise that everybody was equal. Some of those estates' situations when pushed to the extreme created strong areas of poverty and logically criminality (drug laws).
- In those areas, the current generation look up to the previous one who's angry at the system, at the history at France, unemployed, hanging in the estate all day and never really leaving it. Some "Grand-frères" (big brothers / OGs) try to uplift the younger to help them better their situation but some of them only give them the hate and the anger to the system and it becomes a vicious cycle.
Also, those areas being poor already, they attract the poor that go live there because it's cheap making the area even poorer than before. Same for immigrants that come join their families or the people they know, their situation is already precarious and they only enforce the poverty by living there too. It's a cycle that never ends ultimately.
The problem of the integration is too complex for me too explain it but let's say that you can mix together a few factors like :
- parents that work menial jobs when they have jobs
- parents that don't speak french well and can't help their kids with their homework
- success rate in school lower than average
- school drop out higher than average
- racism when looking for jobs, going to the club etc
- shame and anger towards the parents situation and France history with them and their countries of descent
- lack of french general culture regarding the average Frenchman
- growing looking up to rappers that praise to fukk France like a bytch
- lack of travel, lack of holidays (except if they back in the bled), lack of elsewhere when the estate being considered as a owned territory to defend against the police, against enemy turf, against others "that aren't like us"
- lack of accepting French culture as a rebellious movement
- Islam being a strong (and for some the only) identity in a mostly Christian country
- and so on
And then you have the recipe for difficult (if not nonexistent) integration for some in France and as French
About the burqa, the very outfit is not banned as is. It's the clothes that masks the faces that are and that include helmets, ski masks and such. I personally consider it as courtesy to see somebody's face in the streets. I don't care about sunglasses or hats or veils. But a burqa I don't like. And about it specifically, even if it's a traditional outfit and I respect people's traditions, I am shocked every-time I see one (because even if there's a law, I still see some, also because I live in an city where Muslims are numerous.
And the very first time I saw a woman in Burqa in the Evry 2 mall I was shocked also because her husband was walking in Front of her as if he got her on some invisible leach, so I don't have a good experience with Burqas
Yes.
Though I do think there are also factors but discrimination and lack of opportunities are definitely reasons for their radicalization and is definitely the state's fault. See above for a more detailed reply
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
Yeah I didn't tag you because I knew you weren't French and that you might have been lacking history-wise
I may add, that it's true that Jewish associations have been targeting him (judicially speaking) but the reason is simply because Dieudonné have been targeting Jewish people and the quasi-sacred Holocaust in his show for years now. And I may also had, that he's not the only one humorist to talk about the Jews, in case some doubt it.
It's something I didn't point but Blacks West Indians in Europe really look up and/or are influenced by African-Americans, at least, culture-wise (music, sports, TV). My father has always been a good fan of pro-balck stuff (Jim Kelly flicks, Hendrix, MJ and even a little bit of rap) though his West Indian influence was the main part of his identity obviously. Also myself, I've always been influenced by (African-)American (and Jamaican but that's another thing) culture since I can remember. France as always been the second world market for rap music for example and if you look at rappers imagery, it's heavily influenced by the States. I don't know about Black Africans and @mbewane surely knows better.
Pas de soucis!
For Black Africans: yes aboslutely, but it has changed imo: younger africans especially those growing up in the cités see Islam more and more as a "counter"-culture to the dominant "White/French" one with which they don not identify and that dscriminates against them. Add to that the War on Terror and the Palestine/Israël conflict and a lot feel this injustice and side with the perceived victim : Islam and the Muslims. Unfortunately, there are hardly any Black (American or otherwise) "causes" or "role-models" to follow, even just at a cultural level (2pac for example). But the Arab/Muslim world has provided that to some.
How come in France freedom of speech means you can talk shyt about anyone and anything but you can't deny the Holocaust and talk anti semetic rhetoric without being punished?
@Liu Kang answered and I'll add this: the debate about freedom of speech in France is ALWAYS going on, there's always someone who wants something to be forbidden (insulting political and religious figures -Charlie Hebdo was almost exclusively attacked in court by the Far-Right and the Catholics-), denying the Holocaust ever happened, comics going "too far" for some, etc. To my knowledge, amonh historical facts only denying the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide are punished by law, for the reason that Anti-semites and a certain proportion of Turkish (my gf is Turkish) stil deny today they ever happened. For example I never heard of anyone denying slavery happened. But again, it's not only the génocides that are protected by law, insulting a public figure in the media can be protected by the freedom of speech or not, dépends on the prosecution if a complaint is filed. What is forbidden is "inctitment to hatred", which includes good old racism and denying proven historical facts for propaganda purposes.
Again I'll just add to what @Liu said: one very important thing is that the vast majority of workers who immigrated to France (and Belgium) in the 50s and 60s were poor and marginalized in their own countries: we're talking about non-educated people living in the countryside mostly. Unfortunately it is often harder for those people to integrate, especially in such a different country. So many of them would just lay low and try to get by without making too much of a fuss. Now the following générations saw their parents be humble and take shyt, but they weren't gonna do the same because they are born HERE and are more educated. So the resentment is higher. Always understand that it's Young sons of immigrants who are radicalized, the older générations are much more open/easy to go with/don't really care about religion etc.