ManBearPig
half man half bearpig
That's what I'm doing, except I'm going a step further than you and actually looking at impact, not just seeing who might be marginally better in more areas, yet disregarding the large gap(s) in the most important ones. Hence why I'm focusing on scoring as much as I am, because it is probably the most important thing in this argument. Simply because of their roles. It's different for a center because they don't need the same offensive skillset and impact that main guard ball-handlers do, because their impact on the defensive end is equally as important (if not more in some cases). An example of this is Rudy Gobert, despite him being a limited scorer and having a limited scoring skillset, his defensive impact makes up for what he doesn't provide on the offensive end and surpasses almost every big man, even the likes of B.Lopez who scores nearly eight points more than he does and has a better scoring skillset by a considerable margin.
Look at Ben Wallace, he was a terrible scorer and didn't attract defensive attention (again, I go back to the fact that both Kidd and Lowry handle the ball the majority of the time, you can't apply the same reasoning to other positions in the same manner. See: list of factors I've posted 1000x. Because it isn't what's most important for a player like Wallace in order for him to have the impact he had), but he still was among the most impactful big men during his prime because of the impact and influence he had on the defensive end. This is why I'm valuing scoring and offense in general when comparing Kidd and Lowry, because this is where most of the impact is had for two main ball-handling PGs. Not the defensive end, and that's not to say defense doesn't come into it, but it doesn't play as big of a part as offense does.
It's not about the 'totality' of a player, but the impact they have on the game within the roles they play and the skillsets they have. Lillard and Irving aren't what I call particularity well-rounded players, yet they still have more impact than a lot of players who are more well-rounded than they are. Why? Again this goes back to the impact on offense and the roles they play and skillsets.
This doesn't even make any sense, and actually goes against your theory of looking at the "totality" of a player. I mean many would argue on this board that Westbrook is a more complete player. Can you not see how this actually adds weight to my argument? People would bring up Westbrook's rebounding, his assists etc etc in argument for suggesting he's better than Curry.
Where exactly are you going with this?
You're pretty much arguing my case at this point. It could be argued (although I don't necessarily agree) that Westbrook is a better overall player than Curry, the "totality" as you like to put it, but does he have more impact than Curry does? This is what I'm trying to get you to see with Lowry. If you'd actually pay attention to what I'm saying and watch Raptors games you'd actually see my position as being completely reasonable. Lowry can fit in more lineup structures than Kidd can because he can run an efficient offense, he can score and pass together at a high level, he can get his teammates involved and providing spacing because of his shooting ability, he attracts more defensive attention than Kidd does when he's handling the ball - opening up more opportunities and space for teammates, he can play off the ball/provide spot up shooting and cutting opportunities etc etc.
Those #s aren't suppose to blow you away, I used them in reference to show you the margin gap in their points and assists against efficiency and turnovers, and a simple assist to turnover ratio.
Purely from an aesthetic and fan level I prefer Kobe to LeBron, but that doesn't mean LeBron isn't the better player because he is. LeBron's higher on my all-time list and he also has a higher peak than Kobe did. Westbrook and CP3 is another case altogether, and it's not the same as arguing Lowry v Kidd because Lowry scores more points than Kidd while being greatly more efficient. CP3 is more efficient but doesn't but doesn't score more points than Westbrook (he doesn't even close close) nor does he average more points and assists combined.
I mean shyt I find it particularly strange you'd even bring up Wesbrook v CP3, when Westbrook is scoring on a level that CP3 hasn't even come close to. If CP3 even attempted to match Westbrook's scoring output, it'd stand to reason he wouldn't be as efficient as he is now.
None of these comparisons make any sense to our argument.
This is what you're not understanding, yes this Raptors team has more general offensive talent than those Nets teams, however the most influential and impactful player on the Raptors offense is Lowry and it's because he's handling the ball and creating offfense more than any other player + his ability to score/pass at a high level. Those Nets teams weren't void of talent, and if Kidd could score at a high, efficient level his teams' offenses would be among the best in the league. What you also have to take into account is that due to the lack of widespread offensive team talent during the 00s, it was easier for Kidd to propel his team to having a good offense because he was competing against a medium that was of poor offensive value (especially in the Eastern conference). Except Kidd still couldn't, all those horrible offenses during the 00s and yet still this master floor general couldn't even lead his team to having a top-10 offense in the league. Lowry's actually doing this during a time where you have arguably the greatest offensive talented squad ever, a D'Antoni-run offense with a high-level PnR threat, a LeBron/Kyrie/Love led-team etc etc. Lowry's play is pushing his team alongside and even above those types of teams.
And they aren't minor productivity differences on offense either, certainly not at all.
Well clearly you need to watch more Raptors games.
Lowry's been doing this for the last two seasons. In fact despite his elbow injury fukking up his shot in the playoffs, if you were actually paying attention it was his defense which was the most consistent thing about his game in the playoffs.
This is the type of shyt he's displayed on the defensive end all throughout his career (blocking M.Gasol at the rim, locking up PG out on the perimeter etc etc) -
Did you even bother to watch the Olympics to see how good his defense was, and why the team had the best DRTG with him on court - while playing the 5th most minutes?
why u never bring up Kyle Lowry in the playoffs
u just talking about him in the first 3 months of the season
face the entire time
